I had this discussion on FB.
Luke: As a churchgoing Christian, Tom, do you welcome the decline of Christianity in America (eg that Pew Research poll)? As an outsider, I don’t understand why any country that was once dominantly one religion would welcome that decline and displacement by frequently hostile other religions.
Larry Cohen: How do you define “one religion” Luke? If you remember your colonial history, there was frequent hostility between very different sects and denominations of Christianity. For example, puritan Roger Williams was banned from Salem, MA and founded Rhode Island in large part as a colony for people who wanted to freely practice their religion (usually their non-Puritan brand of Christianity). William Penn, founder of Pennsylvania, was an ardent English Quaker who attacked the Catholic/Anglican doctrine of the Trinity and was imprisoned in the Tower of London for doing so. Charles II issued Penn a charter for Pennsylvania essentially to rid England of its troublesome Quakers (Christians, though treated as heretics). Several of our nation’s founders, in particular the brilliant Thomas Jefferson, were Deists, uncommitted to any Christian denomination. In opposing the civil establishment of any religion, Jefferson wrote: “I am for freedom of religion, and against all maneuvers to bring about a legal ascendency of one sect over another.” I can go on with more examples. Basically, America was predominantly populated by people who considered themselves Christian, but their beliefs were expressed by many sectarian variations, often at extreme odds with each other. That’s why our constitution endorsed the separation of Church and State and the acceptance of ALL religions as well as the right to not believe in a god or gods at all.
Luke: I assume that others have the same desire for group cohesion that my group does. I can assure you that if Israel were 99% Jewish, it would not welcome a decline in those numbers. My understanding is that the creators of the USA were predominantly Protestants or from that background. Why they would welcome eclipse of power and numbers is beyond me. I don’t know why any cohesive nation would want more diversity because that always results in increased conflict.
Larry Cohen: Your understanding is correct, but those predominantly Protestant “creators,” or at least the consensus that was formed, agreed that no religion should be established by the State and that tolerance for all religions (and for lack of religious belief) was necessary for a free society (not counting slaves, of course). By the way, “group cohesion” is an acceptable desire, but it does not justify imposing one group’s interpretations and beliefs on others or directly frustrating their different tenets and expressions of belief or actions, provided that nothing illegal is being undertaken by such other group (i.e., fraud, discrimination, slander, assault and battery, etc.).
Luke: I can’t think of any successful cohesive groups that do not do all the things you deplore. Can you? I’m not an expert, but I think this religious liberty was meant to only include Protestants. There are no rabbinic conceptions of a Torah state that do not do all the things you deplore, but perhaps it is only appropriate for Jews to do these things, not goyim.
Tom: I don’t necessarily welcome it, Luke Ford, but neither do I view it as a catastrophe. I believe God is in control and will care for all of us in the end. The only point of church is to help us find a workable relationship to the Eternal, which cares nothing for demographics and doctrinal fine points. Being in a shrinking congregation doesn’t make a belief untrue, and I’m not threatened by the beliefs (or not) of others. I’m suspicious of those hawking “church growth” strategies, tearing down other faiths and getting all panicky about the future. It strikes me as immature and it makes me wonder if those folks are more worshipful of the balance sheet than they are of the unchanging God.
Luke: As an outsider to Christianity, I do not welcome America and the world becoming less Christian, seemingly, every day and I am very concerned about demographics. I see our trajectory as a catastrophe. I love the countries that Protestants have uniquely created and I hate to see the decline of the WASP. I believe we have to act as though God is leaving things entirely up to us. I am more concerned with the present than with “the end.” I don’t give a toss about doctrinal fine points and I don’t care much about theological truth. I hope I don’t sound rude. I’m trying to say I love what Protestants created and I hate seeing them decline in power. America was better when it was ruled by Protestants. As for tearing down others, the stronger your in-group identity, the more likely you are to have negative views of out-groups. It’s easy to be tolerant and not strongly identifying. Count me as one who is panicking about the future.
Tom: Be of good cheer, my friend. God is in His Heaven and all is right with the world — no matter what the newspapers say and no matter what lapels we put on each other.
