Greg Leake emails: Hi Luke,
I wanted to say something about the last Torah Talk.
Luke, you asked some extremely important and cogent questions, and frankly I was astounded at the answers you received.
The earth doesn’t go around the sun, the flood covered the entire terrestrial globe of earth. (We had already eliminated dinosaurs.) And on and on through a dazzling display. You know, it is regarded as inadequate to simply say that “God did it” whenever one is presented with a series of facts that are not within the province of one’s religion to answer.
If one wishes to contradict science, one must at least present supporting evidence that can move through the hypothesis stage, through the theory stage in order to challenge what is regarded as a fact. It is not that a fact can’t be challenged (intelligent design is today challenging the inadequacy presented by no tangible missing link). But it is not enough for every inexplicable question to be answered, “God did it.”
It is not a question of whether it is within the omnipotence of God to accomplish some of the wonders that require answers. It is that evidence leading to an acceptable theory must be advanced. So anyway, I am not a science guy. Nevertheless, I do live in a post-Copernican universe, and I am going to have to side with the idea that the earth goes around the sun, and that there were dinosaurs, and that the flood, while arguably covered a broad territory, did not also drown China and India (or Australia).
You also asked if Judaism had a message for the world. And what you got was a pronouncement about “Noahists”. Look, I really think that Judaism has more to say to the world than “try to cut back a little on the bestiality”. And if fact I would say that Dennis Prager spends every day telling all of us what Judaism has to say to the world. And this is apparently unfortunate, because Dennis Prager is supposedly a heretic. (You will notice how adroitly Rabbs tap danced around my question from last week’s Torah Talk.) Here’s the deal. We have a problem. Dennis Prager is arguably the most beloved, respected, and famous Jew in the United States. So it appears that the very person who is seen by Christians and Jews as the inimitable face of Judaism is in fact a heretic from the perspective of Judaism. You know, George Washington was the most un-American citizen in the early US.
Incidentally, if you read a group of essays by Mircea Eliade called Occultism, Witchcraft, and Cultural Fashions you will understand that witchcraft is not a religious tradition. It actually is a 19th century invention that has achieved pop-culture status. It is more like the “kids and capes” phenomenon that surround Anne Rice’s books about vampires. (You know, in a lot of cities there nightclubs that people go to dressed up like vampires, and they actually, in some cases, believe that they are vampires.) Fifteen or twenty years ago, there was a “satanism” craze started by carnival huckster Anton Szanders LaVey. Mostly it consisted of a bunch of kids dragging up and down the strip, and then meeting in a parking lot at midnight to burn and candle and read excerpts from The Satanic Bible. Witchcraft, like these others, is simply another pop culture phenomenon. (Are there are Jewish goths? …wait, you don’t need them; you’re all goths 🙂 )
I like your perspective on vegetarianism. I was a vegetarian for 6 years a long time ago. It might be of interest to know that carbs from all vegetables are turned into glucose in the body, and so a vegetarian is living on sugar with a few exceptions in the veggies. A change to a high-protein diet not only burns fat, but also cuts back on the sugar, and is in fact a different experience. (This is one of those inconvenient facts that I was forced to accept even though I didn’t want to.)
Something else worth knowing is that it is the aerobic content of an exercise regime that builds physical energy. Doing hatha yoga has a lot to recommend it, but it is actually the pace walking or jogging that causes an increase in the amount of pep that a person has. Naturally I have no way of knowing whether either of these facts would affect your condition… but you never know.
RABBI RABBS EMAILS: Hello Greg,
Good to hear from you once again, and thank you for your continued support of our show, and for your valued feedback. I will respond to your points in order:
1. You misquoted me. I never stated that the earth doesn’t go around the sun. Rather, I stated that in addition to the earth revolving around the sun, the sun also goes around the earth. If you claim in the name of science that the latter is not true, then you are guilty of positing what the Lubavitcher Rebbe, obm, condemned:
“To declare categorically in the name of science, that the earth revolves around the sun, and not vise versa, is, as noted above, turning the scientific clock back to the 19th century and Medieval science. It is also at variance with the theory of relativity, which has likewise been universally accepted. Science now declares—as categorically as it is permissible for contemporary science—that where two bodies in space are in relative motion, it is scientifically impossible to determine which is at rest and which in motion.”
http://www.torahscience.org/torahsci/rebbeletter.html
2. You unsuccessfully tried to foolishly apply the claim that it is regarded as inadequate to simply say that “G-d did it” whenever one is presented with a series of “facts” that are not within the province of one’s religion to answer.
That silly claim presupposes that the religion of the secularists which they call science is somehow the sole arbiter of truth, and therefore, any belief that is in contradiction to that supposition is arrogantly dismissed as not consistent with the so-called facts. Not only is that the height of arrogance but it is also ridiculous when science has not brought a “series of facts” but rather “a series of theories”. You obviously are easily convinced by those theories and mistakenly treat them as “facts”, but your extreme faith in secularist guesswork doesn’t require the rest of us to embrace your faith-based religion.
3. You require that because Torah contradicts some scientific theories that therefore it requires supporting evidence. That is not correct. Torah doesn’t need to fit into scientific rules to be true. To claim otherwise would mean to state that the ultimate truth is scientific theories, and once again, G-d and His Torah must fit into those theories. That requirement is beyond ridiculous, and to champion it means to accept the rules of nature above all else, and not only does that not leave room for miracles, but such a belief is pure idolatry.
4. You wrote that it is not enough for every inexplicable question to be answered, “G-d did it.” In that case, you have a serious problem with Judaism, because one of Judaism’s core beliefs is that we accept as 100% truth whatever G-d says in His Torah. To dismiss even one word or apologize for what’s written or otherwise water the Torah down to make it more capable of fitting in with popular secularist ideas is a horrible perversion to Torah and is not Judaism.
5. You belittled the Noachide Laws by stating that Judaism has more to say to the world than cut back on bestiality. You obviously know very little about the Noachide Laws. The details of the Laws are quite extensive and exhaustive, and it would be a severe injustice to simply dismiss them so easily. I would suggest that you actually study those laws before you criticize them, so at least you know what it is that you are condemning.
6. Dennis Prager. Unfortunately, I am sure it is common amongst his unsuspecting audience to mistakenly believe that Prager’s nonsense represents Judaism. It doesn’t. He espouses pure heresy and should be ignored. His philosophies only represent the ideas of himself and heretical movements that have dismissed Judaism. Therefore, it would be more correct to say that Prager speaks Pragerism or Reformism.
For the record, I never called him a heretic. Rather, I said he espouses heresy. There is a difference.
7. You claim that I “tap danced” around your question from last week’s Torah Talk. I have no idea what you’re referring to, because I checked Luke’s blog and I see nothing from you posted after last week’s show. Perhaps you could be so kind as to inform me as to what your supposed question was.
GREG LEAKE EMAILS: Hey Rabbs,
what’s shaking? been to the beach recently? It sounds like the Jewish holidays were tough for you. My hope is that someday you’ll be able to go to someplace like Big Sur to weather these holidays, so at least you can be surrounded by a lot of natural beauty and maybe walk through the forest or something. If it were me, that would make the whole thing less of an ordeal.
I see these propositions that you advanced about the world being covered with water during the flood and the earth not exactly going around the sun as basically ancient Babylonian science. I don’t think it was wrong in its day or wrong in terms of history, but I do believe these views need to be re-evaluated in light of the advances in knowledge that have occurred. I think that in ancient Babylon, Assyria, Sumeria, etc., is where a lot of these ideas originate, and naturally I think there is nothing amiss with a bit of updating.
I don’t regard science as the ultimate epistemology. At the same time, I do not believe that science can be entirely dismissed when it conflicts with some otherwise axiomatic propositions. I also believe G-d created the universe. So our disagreement would be about how that creation occurred. My view is that today we have a number of disciplines to consider. While in ancient times we only had one, i.e., the religious view. Today we have religion, history, science, philosophy, anthropology, and many disciplines unfolded out of those I just mentioned. I do not believe that science ultimately can be an arbiter about divine life and the propensities of divine life in the areas of manifestation. Sometimes in philosophy this is thought of as metaphysics or ontology. (What is the ultimate nature of the universe?)
And epistemology is about how we know what we know. i have never seen the Eiffel Tower, and yet I am convinced that it exists. I have seen pictures of the Eiffel Tower, but ultimately if it had been removed i would be incorrect in my view that the Eiffel tower was still there. A lot goes into trying to nail down how we know what we know and also what the nature of ultimate reality is.
One of the interesting things about my communication with you is that 99% of the time i am arguing the case for religion against science. (Did you know that there are a couple of scientific labs where arguments between those who believe in G-d and those who don’t are are basically debates about when an atom moves is it being propelled by an invisible intelligence, or is it simply a random activity.) Well in cases like i just stated, I feel that both sides have lost the thread of the true nature of what they are deliberating about.
By the way, this idea of relativity from the point of view of celestial mechanics is not a bad philosophical position. One can say that the sun goes around the earth as an insight and perception much as one could say that in the Soviet Union California was off the east cost. However, this is a way of talking about the perceiver and his perception and not a discussion of the processes. Either way you cut it, the world is still a globe, and is still in orbit around the sun. Actually, I’m not a scientific guy, and so I’ll be happy to let members of the Royal Academy argue about this one.
You discussed Noahism.
1. Prohibition of Idolatry: You shall not have any idols before God.
2. Prohibition of Murder: You shall not murder. (Genesis 9:6)
3. Prohibition of Theft: You shall not steal.
4. Prohibition of Sexual immorality: You shall not commit any of a series of sexual prohibitions, which include adultery, incest, sodomy, and bestiality.
5. Prohibition of Blasphemy: You shall not blaspheme God’s name.
6. Dietary Law: Do not eat flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive. (Genesis 9:4, as interpreted in the Talmud (Sanhedrin 59a)
7. Requirement to have just Laws: Set up a governing body of law (eg Courts)
It is true that I characterized the laws in a flip manner. But I think you have to admit that almost all of these assertions have long ago been part of the fabric of Western life. I mean, who runs down a cow and takes a bite, for crying out loud? In the US, we try to have just laws, and it doesn’t always work primarily, I guess we would agree, because of liberals. But still, we’re doing a pretty good job compared to places like North Korea or Iran. Anyway, I think it’s good for these laws to be known, but I do not really see any shocking new details here.
I didn’t follow up on the last post because a) it’s getting close to elections and I’m swamped; b) I am a little more reluctant to put pressure on you now that I understand what you are wrestling with psychologically, and bravely doing so, I might add; and c) I know nothing I say to you will mean anything because I’m not a Jew and do not establish my points based on the Torah. For example, if I had real influence I would grab you by the shoulders and say my friend this way of life is not good for you. Throw off some of the shackles and let yourself live a little. However, knowing you as i do, I appreciate that you would have utter comtempt for a goy advancing such an idea.
1. The basic question was if someone was a heretic in Judaism, and yet they go out and do something or discover something that adds to the well-being of mankind, can you appreciate them and theri contrubition.
2. Another question I would ask is when you said at the end of that post that the Jewish community would have to do something, what would you have them do?
3. If someone was a Torah-observant Jew in their youth, but they decided that they did not believe in the proposition presented by the Torah and left Judaism to pursue a different path, wold you still refer to them as a heretic and condemn them? You know, Rabbs, in the Christian world we do have people who just decide that they can no longer believe what their priests or ministers are saying. They are genuine. They are authentic. They are sincere. I have heard jews on Luke’s site talking about their friends who are Jews and yet do not believe in G-d. Are these people heretics? What should be done to them?
You know, Rabbs, out here in the Christian wolrd, the idea of heretics is a problem. When I was a kid my grandfather would have thought that you were going to hell because you were a Jew. You would have been in good cmpany though, because in the same period the Vatican would have seaid I was going to hell because I was a Protestant. If you go back to the inquisition, many who for whatever reason could not ultimately bring themselves to believe certain positions of the Catholic Church were tortured and murdered. It is said that St. Torquemada would go into religious ecstasy when watching some hapless Protestant, Jew, secularist, free thinker, etc., burning to death, because he said he saw their soul rising to Paradise out of their charred remains.
Thank G-d this has all been swept away by the advancement of human knowledge and a better comprehension of humanity and our plight. However, I think you can see that the concept of heresy still has a residue of frightening injustice. Now, thank G-d, some of my best friends are Catholics, but did you know that to this day Protestants are regarded as apostates by the Catholic Church? They regard Protestants as having “faith communities” and not actually being a “church”. The Catholic Church has recognized many other religions but has yet to recognize Protestants who largely embrace the same faith.
So I say give everybody a break. Let everyone believe what is healthy for them and that works for them and helps them along their spiritual journey, and dial the accusations of heresy down to a low volume.
RABBI RABBS EMAILS: Hey Greg,
Thanks for taking the time to compose such a lengthy response. Thanks for asking about me. Surf was washed out this week by the rain.
You wrote that the Torah needs to be reevaluated and updated. I would agree with you if the Torah were manmade and only intended for that generation. But, that is not the case, as Torah was written by G-d who is infinite and so is what He wrote in His Torah. Therefore, it never needs updating and must never be reevaluated. It is the timeless blueprint for His creation. As the saying goes, when all else fails, follow directions. The Torah is the directions. It doesn’t matter when scientific theories disagree with those directions, because such contradicting theories can only be wrong.
If you choose to disregard the instruction manual in favor of secular theories, that’s fine. You are certainly entitled to believe in whatever you choose.
As for the sun and earth, again, I never indicated that the earth doesn’t orbit around the sun. The question was does the sun go around the earth or vice-versa, and the answer is that both are correct. Anyone that dismisses one of the two possibilities is violating modern science, at least according to the Lubavitcher.
As for the Noachide Laws, they are for the most part, and not by accident, become a foundation of Western life, as so much of Western civilization is built on Judeo-Christian values which are all based on or borrowed from Torah.
As for learning the details to those Laws, I might recommend reading the extensive “Divine Code”, http://www.asknoah.org/thedivinecode.html , before you dismiss the Laws as not having shocking new details. You might be surprised.
You might mean well, but please don’t patronize me by claiming that I’m psychologically fragile and therefore somehow less capable of debating the issues with you. That’s a cop out and I won’t tolerate it.
If you had real influence and grabbed me by the shoulders and told me to throw off some of the shackles and let myself live a little, I would respond to you the same way I have responded to others in that if my life sucks while I serve my master, it is beyond ridiculous and absurd to possibly believe that somehow my master will make my life improve once I stop serving him. Whether you are a Jew or a Goy telling me that is irrelevant.
I apologize for not noticing your question from last week when I looked for it yesterday. I do recall our conversation from last week, and I hope you read that article I provided to you regarding how Judaism views science.
You asked: “1. The basic question was if someone was a heretic in Judaism, and yet they go out and do something or discover something that adds to the well-being of mankind, can you appreciate them and theri contrubition.”
And, you claim I tap danced around it. However, the context of that question when you originally asked it was built on the supposition that all scientific theories are considered heretical by Torah. That supposition is fallacious, so I corrected it, and didn’t bother answering the rest of the question — as it was built on a false premise.
However, since you wish to examine the question on its own without the prior context, I would be more than happy to answer it by stating that let’s say a leader in a heretical movement such as Conservative “Judaism”, someone who I feel comfortable calling a heretic, discovered the cure for AIDs or whatever, the Torah tells me to hate them for the damage they’ve caused to the Jewish people and leave it at that, because whatever good would come from saving physical lives is washed away by the damage they do to spiritual lives, and spiritual lives are far more important than physical lives, because physical lives are limited to the time we are on this planet, but our spiritual lives are eternal.
You asked for me to elaborate on what action the Jewish community would need to take. I explained the answer in last week’s show that the leaders of our generation grouped together to ban the heretical books written by Slifkin, and thus we are to burn those books if they are in our possession.
You asked if people who leave Judaism are heretics. The answer is no. They are secular Jews. Most Jews today are secular. They are not heretics. They are children captured by Goyim.
