* I’ve been listening to Luke Ford’s alt right tonight discussions and some arguments made by Spencer and Taylor but I’m still stuck on a few issues.
How does the alt right deal with what appears to be a big schism.
On one side the alt right there’s a group of white identitarians that want an end to anti white rhetoric in politics. This seems to be a growing group. Another name for this group seems to be ‘racially conscious libertarians’ another name thrown around is ‘alt light’
Then on the other end of the schism is another pretty good size group of white nationalist, supremacists, national socialists, etc.
Spencer and Taylor seem to straddle these two groups.
It also seems like authoritarian types like Enoch and Anglin threaten the work of Lauren Southern and Martin Sellner. Southern, Tommy Robinson and others like them seem to be bringing way more people over to the general alt right cause then Enoch and Anglin IMO (I could be wrong though).
It seems to me that the left very strongly wants to link these two groups to tarnish the work of the identitarians.
Are there any strategy discussions on how to combat being labeled a supremacist and Nazi simply because you criticize SJW events like Evergreen?
It seems to me that more people would join the alt light or alt right if they weren’t terrified of losing their jobs and families because they are painted with the supremacist brush.
The youtuber Frame Game seems to being doing some good work on this front as well.
* Frame game is as extremist as you can get in the alt right.
* The best strategy to combat being called a Nazi or racist ect is to just say you don’t care what names you get called and continue spreading your message
That’s fine for the self employed and non social media users. For 80% of the rest of the country it’s not. Look at how badly run of the mill conservatives are getting bashed right now.
Also, do you believe in the existence of a white ethno state to protect all the European ethnic groups currently facing extinction?
I’m really on the fence on a lot of these issues.
I believe that European countries should give people living abroad ‘right of return’ if they have ancestry and they should be at the front of the line over Muslim immigrants.
I believe Nations should be able to control their borders.
I believe that white people should be able to congregate without being called racists.
I believe that whites shouldn’t be shamed for wanting to have white babies.
I believe laws based on race like affirmative action are racist towards whites and need abolished.
I believe in secularism
I believe Israel has fought for its land and deserves to exist and control it’s borders however it sees fit.
I believe that no racial group should be above criticism.
I believe that whites that choose to race mix should never be criticized and I wouldn’t want to live in a white ethno state that tried to control sexual reproduction or shame/punish people for associating or breeding with other races and creeds.
More questions concerning a white ethno state (if you don’t mind): How do you prevent racial spiraling? How do you get around non white ethnic groups that have been in north america for a very long time? How do you deal with mixed race whites? It also seems to me that whites rely on other races to do a lot of low wage and high wage intellectual work. It would take a lot of job training to have whites doing every single job in a new ethno state. After your ethno state is formed do you think white baby making will pick up again? That doesn’t seem guaranteed to me.
* I just don’t understand the alt right. I thought I did before I came in here and now I’m totally lost.
I’ve been trying to sit in on the Luke Ford ‘alt right tonight streams’ to figure out what’s going on but to little avail. I’m over there now if you want to jump in.
Frame game = “alt-lite” red pill for normies fighting against negative perceptions of white identitarians?
Have you listen to his ‘white motte and bailey argument’? I guess I was sucked in by him a little bit because he very much reminded me of my best friend who is jewish and a jewish family I grew up with very closely to.
* A lot of the people in our movement seem to believe that we should be openly “redpilled” and “based” (euphemisms for racist and bigoted), and anyone that calls for moderation is usually denounced as a cuck or a shill. People like Andrew Anglin seem to have a lot of sway over the Alt-Reich wing of the Alt-Right which advocates embracing the Nazi salute, Nazi symbolism, and Nazi rhetoric. And he also demands that everyone in the Alt-Right promotes holocaust denial. But is this a winning strategy? Should we really embrace an openly neo-Nazi aesthetic?
We shouldn’t be delusional and think that we’ve won or that we’re winning and that our ideas and our movement are now becoming mainstream just because Trump got elected or because of the successful Brexit vote. While we are indeed growing and we have indeed helped to pull the Overton window in our direction, we’re still a tiny and powerless movement. We don’t have a single elected official that represents our views, and we only have a handful of minor celebrities like Sam Hyde who openly describe themselves as Alt-Right.
I think that the liberal media has played into our delusions that we’re rapidly taking over the world like an unstoppable ideological blitzkrieg by accusing everyone to the right of SJWs as being Alt-Right. Milo is Alt-Right, Breitbart is Alt-Right, Pepe is Alt-Right, Sargon is Alt-Right, David Rubin is Alt-Right, Tim Pool is Alt-Right, Trump and all of his supporters are Alt-Right, et cetera. The media is doing this cynically in order to demonize their ideological opponents. Calling someone Alt-Right is now their go-to political slur. They’re basically calling people Nazis and fascists when they call someone Alt-Right in order to demonize them and work the Left up into a violent frenzy. That’s why you’re seeing so many rabid Leftists savagely assaulting basic bitch conservatives and Trump supporters while screeching, “Die, Nazi scum! Die!” as they do it.
When I look at conservatives, the Alt-Lite, and the anti-SJW community and compare them to the Alt-Right and other White Nationalist movements, I can’t help but notice that they have way, way more YouTube subscribers and Twitter followers. And even though they’re also relatively powerless since the liberals still firmly control academia, the news media, the entertainment industry, the government sector, the corporate sector, et cetera, and even though the conservative establishment is still a bunch of cucks compared to Trump’s base, they still have way more influence over the masses than we do. And they’re the ones who have Trump’s ear and are shaping the new Western Right, not us.
Now, maybe you can argue that we left our mark on the Right and the anti-SJW movement and made them more redpilled, and so the Alt-Lite and the anti-SJW movement is basically serving as our ideological middlemen, but does that mean that we should stick to our guns and keep being openly White Nationalist? Should we be content with merely influencing the worldview of the mainstream political activists who secretly follow our content, even if that means that we’ll continue to be treated like social and ideological pariahs by both the Left and the Right? And what are we going to do if the Alt-Lite, Trump supporters, and the anti-SJW movement stops playing footsie with us and starts openly declaring war on us and speaking out against our views? Because that’s what’s started to happen over the last few weeks. Just look at how the Alt-Lite tried to sabotage our free speech event in Washington, D.C. recently.
Are we actually playing into our enemies’ hands by playing the part of the evaaal skinhead neo-Nazi? I know that we’ve tried to offset that stereotype by getting slick fashy haircuts, wearing tailored suits, and speaking eloquently in public, but I still fear that we’re being a little bit too edgy for our own good.
Now, don’t get me wrong; I’m not saying that we should cuck by abandoning our White Nationalist beliefs. What I’m advocating for is that we should be more clever and subtle in promoting and advancing our ideology. This video by Lauren Southern is the perfect example of how I personally think that we should present ourselves to the public. She throws in the mandatory disclaimers about how this has absolutely nothing to do with race but is instead purely about cultural incompatibility blahblahblah, but anyone with an IQ over 90 sees right through her bullshit anti-racist facade and knows that what she’s really doing is pimping White Nationalist ideology in regards to stopping the non-White and Islamic colonization of the White Western world. That video may as well have been titled “White Genocide for normies”. And cuckservatives eat that shit up. They can’t get enough of it. I guarantee you that she’ll get 95% upvotes and at least 100,000 views and gain 1,000 new subscribers just from that video alone. It’s a masterpiece of subtle Alt-Right/White Nationalist propaganda that perfectly walks the fine line between social acceptability among everyone who isn’t an SJW on one side and being denounced and rejected as disgusting racist propaganda and ultimately getting banned from social media as a result on the other side.
I think that we need to think long and hard about our approach moving forward because we simply can’t afford to lose anymore. As her video pointed out, the non-White demographic tsunami that is going to completely obliterate the White race (at least in White Western countries) is getting closer and closer to our shores. We can’t afford to pursue ineffective strategies anymore. The survival of our people depends on us getting it right and finding a winning formula.
And that’s why we have to be brutally honest with ourselves and admit that blatant White Nationalist movements have gone absolutely nowhere over the last few decades. Prove me wrong by naming a single notable White Nationalist accomplishment in the last 40 years.
I know that Richard Spencer continues to be optimistic in interviews where he beams about how our movement is continuing to grow at a rapid pace, but is it really? Me personally, I noticed a sharp decline in enthusiasm for the Alt-Right after The Atlantic did that hit piece on us where they showed a handful of guys giving Nazi salutes in response to Richard’s famous closing line in his speech where he yelled, “Hail Trump!” Now that everyone knew that we were literally a neo-Nazi movement (which is debatable), you saw everyone who wanted to uphold their good name publicly denounce us, distance themselves from us, and actively work against us. Yet Richard’s bizarre response to that public relations catastrophe was basically to say that it was a good thing because it cleared out the cucks from our movement and gave us lots of media publicity.
That was such an idiotic move in my opinion. First of all, he never should have used such blatantly neo-Nazi rhetoric which provoked those handful of retards in the audience to give Nazi salutes in front of the world press. But since that incident did happen, he should have clearly denounced them in order to maintain credible deniability and a semblance of respectability. Likewise, his stubborn insistence on refusing to denounce Hitler and the Nazis makes it too obvious that he’s a crypto-Nazi. And no, associating ourselves with Nazism is not a good idea since it’s probably the most demonized ideological movement in all of human history. Trying to normalize Nazism and insisting that Nazism and White Nationalism have to always be synonymous with each other is going to ensure that a pro-White movement never breaks into the mainstream.
So, to me it seems like Richard’s reassurance that our movement is continuing to grow sounds more like a dishonest pep talk. Where’s the evidence that our movement is growing? Where’s the web traffic stats to back that up? Where’s the famous people, e-celebs, and politicians espousing our views in public?
I think that the blatant neo-Nazi and fascist aesthetics of our movement peaked in late 2016 and has slowly started to decline ever since. And we need to recognize that rather than being delusional. It’s now time to ease up on that crap and put a more respectable face on our ideas in order make them more palatable to the general public.
If you want to keep using fashy memes online, then be my guest. But when you actually put your face out in public and are representing our ideas, then please tone down the autism. Always tailor your message to the audience and try to think of how the average Trump supporter will perceive you. You need to win him over, not make him think that you’re a neo-Nazi freak. If Trump supporters keep associating White Nationalism and the Alt-Right with Nazism and fascism, then they’re never going to listen to us and will instead join the Left in crushing us.
It’s nice to see The Gateway Pundit coming to their defense. For those of you that don’t know, The Gateway Pundit is one of the most popular cuckservative blogs. That blog gives you a pretty good idea of how the average Republican thinks, and so they can be used to gauge how the mainstream right is reacting to pro-White activism.
That seemingly insignificant blog post should actually be seriously analyzed by the pro-White community because there’s a lot of subtle lessons to be gleaned from it in relation to how we should best move forward in order to win over the average White conservative.
The European identitarian movement has done a much better job than the Alt-Right when it comes to keeping their optics and rhetoric relatively socially acceptable. They typically don’t run around giving Nazi salutes and spouting extremist rhetoric – which has been a major problem for the pro-White movement for decades. Extremism alienates White conservatives and makes it too easy for the anti-White left to justify banning our speech – both of which is preventing us from growing our ranks. Using watered down and coded language allows us to reach a much wider audience and actually affect change in the real world.
We should call all of our future events free speech events. This will force the left to increasingly denounce, mock, and suppress free speech – which will alienate the masses. This arrest and ban of identitarians, and the oppression of Islamophobes like Tommy Robinson, is going to alienate huge numbers of conservatives – which will eventually result in the erosion of the politically correct left-wing zeitgeist which is currently suppressing our ideas.
We need to make more efforts to reach out to cuckservative Islamophobes like Tommy Robinson. Islamophobia is one of the keys to growing our ranks because the Zionists have managed to brainwash the conservative masses across the West. Islamophobia is one of the few forms of blatant bigotry which is still considered to be marginally socially acceptable on the right. The Zionists are pushing Islamophobia in order to advance their own interests, and we need to do so as well because Islamophobia serves as a stepping stone towards pro-White activism.
The nexus of the Alt-Right, the Alt-Lite, and cuckservatism needs better traffic management and communication networks. Back in 2016, there was a pretty efficient flow of traffic and communication between those three camps. But then Hailgate caused a significant traffic jam. And then Charlottesville basically blew up the bridge and lines of communication that used to connect us to the Alt-Lite and mainstream conservatism. We need to invest a lot of effort into repairing and improving our damaged infrastructure. We need to build a big beautiful Trumpian bridge between the three camps so that we get even more traffic than we did back in 2016.
Richard’s decision to basically declare war on mainstream conservatism and clearly differentiate the Alt-Right from conservatism was useful in the sense that it liberated the right-wing mind to explore the merits of all kinds of interesting ideas. I genuinely believe that the Alt-Right platform would almost certainly create a better society than the GOP’s current platform. Freeing ourselves from the absolutely retarded policies of the modern GOP was extremely important. But I ultimately think that that “we’re not conservatives” approach towards the GOP has exceeded its usefulness and has even ultimately backfired on us by now. And I’ll further explain why in a bit.
It shouldn’t be controversial to acknowledge that the Alt-Right’s drift towards actual neo-Nazism and fascism over the last couple of years has absolutely backfired on us. Now when the average person thinks of the Alt-Right, they think of Nazi-saluting and torch-carrying fascists who like to run people over with cars and rant against Jews. As a result, the Alt-Right label has probably become irreparably toxic. I mean, who in their right mind would publicly identify as Alt-Right in 2018? And that’s an absolutely massive problem if we actually want to gain the number of supporters that we’re going to need if we actually want to affect change in the real world.
So, I know that lot of people on here aren’t going to want to hear this, but it’s time for another rebranding of pro-White activism because the Alt-Right label is pretty much dead in the water now. And so to get back to the point that I was making about Richard’s ultimately stupid decision to declare jihad on the conservative movement, I think that we actually need to go back to calling ourselves conservatives again.
That’s essentially what Martin and Brittany decided to do in order to gain sympathy from the conservative blogosphere – and it clearly worked. They didn’t respond to the sympathetic conservative blog posts which were describing them as “conservative activists” by saying, “Um, we’re not actually conservatives. We’re Alt-Right identitarians. We don’t want anything to do with you cuckservatives,” as Richard probably would have typically argued.
By rebranding themselves as conservatives, they actually very cleverly helped to subtly change what it means to be a conservative. They basically took Alt-Right identitarian ideas, classified them as conservative, and now an absolutely massive pool of sympathetic conservatives accepted them as members of the conservative tribe. That’s huge! That’s a quiet revolution within the conservative movement that I don’t think most people are fully appreciating.
The last time that I saw statistics on how many Americans self-identify as conservative, it was about 40%. That’s an absolutely massive number of people which can absolutely change the future direction of this country. So, rather than stupidly declaring war on this gigantic swath of the American population (which is what Richard essentially did), we instead need to infiltrate them and convince them to adopt at least some of our views.
Much like how Andrew Anglin very successfully strong-armed the Alt-Right into adopting a neo-Nazi platform by brazenly stating that you aren’t Alt-Right if you aren’t a neo-Nazi (even though he initially denounced the Alt-Right for being too soft), we need to start insisting that pro-White policies are a key part of the conservative platform – just like how pro-black policies are a key part of the liberal platform.
William F. Buckley Jr. essentially created the new core of the modern American conservative movement by purging the White racists and bigots. The official stance of the conservative movement on racial issues is now pretending to be colorblind – which was originally a liberal idea that was concocted in the 1950s in order to make White people okay with black people moving into their communities. The corporate-funded right-wing think tanks also played a central role in shaping modern conservative economic policy by successfully brainwashing the average right-winger into thinking that free trade, low taxes, and small government are conservative values. And the Zionist neocons successfully brainwashed the average conservative into thinking that an extremely hawkish foreign policy (especially in the Middle East) was a conservative value.
Traditional conservatives were always very explicitly pro-White and opposed to forced diversity. Even Buckley himself used to be a racist in the 1950s. And they were also anti-war isolationists and economic protectionists. So, if what it means to be a conservative can change and evolve over time, then there’s absolutely no reason why we can’t help to change what it means to be a conservative as well – especially since we have a much more legitimate claim to traditional conservative values than the modern conservative movement does.
And Trump proved that you can change what it means to be a conservative. Unfortunately, Trump has by now largely surrendered to internal pressure from the conservative establishment and adopted most of their policies, but he still won the Republican presidential nomination and the national presidential election itself by running on an anti-establishment platform. So, the average conservative is obviously fed up with the current platform of the conservative establishment and is willing to adopt policies which are at least Alt-Lite.
People like Pat Buchanan should serve as the model for how we can infiltrate and reclaim the conservative movement because he pretty much agrees with us on almost every single important issue and has been a conservative icon for decades. Pat Buchanan might be labeled a “paleoconservative”, but he clearly represents actual conservatism. The brainwashed cuckservatives have actually scored a successful point against us by somewhat correctly arguing that we aren’t even real right-wingers or conservatives because we don’t agree with most of the GOP’s current platform and have even adopted “socialist” ideas on things like healthcare, but they can’t question Pat Buchanan’s conservative credentials.
Another advantage to rebranding ourselves as conservatives will be providing /ourguys/ with a clear real world mission. Rather than having to lurk anonymously and impotently online, or showing up to some real world Alt-Right shitshow which is just going to result in them getting doxxed, we can instead get them involved in the legitimate political process by having them going door to door for red-pilled conservative candidates and engaging in other forms of traditional political campaigning. We need /ourguys/ running for office as conservatives. And we need /ourguys/ volunteering to campaign for them just as hard as every other mainstream political movement. That will provide a healthy and productive outlet for the energy of our supporters, as opposed to shitposting online and becoming depressed and anti-social.
Another advantage to rebranding ourselves as conservatives is that it gives us the protection of the herd (there has to be at least 100 million self-identified conservatives in America alone). And much like how the striped camouflage of zebras works by not allowing predators to isolate individual zebras, so too will rebranding ourselves as conservatives confuse our leftist enemies. They already like to call everyone to the right of Mao “racist fascist Nazis”, and we can make their “racist!1” accusations look even more unhinged (and therefore ultimately ineffective) by forcing them to no-platform and violently attack every single conservative and Republican in the entire Western world – which will obviously eventually completely backfire on the left by making the left look dangerously deranged and fanatically intolerant of differing points of view.
Another advantage of infiltrating the conservative movement will be gaining access to firmly established conservative infrastructure and financing. Zionist Jews are a very tiny percentage of the American/human population, and yet they managed to gain access to the most powerful country and military in the world. The American military, intelligence community, foreign policy establishment, and both political parties are now more supportive of Israel than any other country in the world. That absolutely incredible feat of strategic maneuvering from the Zionists should serve as the model for us when it comes to gaining access to at least the conservative movement. We need that level of firepower and political legitimacy on our side if we actually want to accomplish anything in the real world.
And it’s not like the conservative label can just be abandoned or suppressed after it becomes associated with pro-White activism and ideas. The conservative movement is far too firmly established within mainstream society to ever be successfully marginalized by the anti-White left. And that touches on a point that Richard has made several times about not wanting the Alt-Right to become an obscure or fringe movement. Well, he essentially made that inevitable with the name itself. The Alt-Right has essentially become a third party candidate which has absolutely no chance of being elected. You can’t label and describe your movement as an alternative movement and then expect it to become as large as the already firmly established political movements – especially in a two-party state like America. That’s why it’s important for us to instead work towards redefining what it means to be a conservative rather than trying to create an alternative ideological movement from scratch.
I just want to comment on the tactics and culture of the neo-Nazi movement.
After 50+ years of neo-Nazi activism, it shouldn’t be controversial to argue that Nazi uniforms, Nazi salutes, and swastikas just alienate the public and harm the larger pro-White movement. A lot of neo-Nazis recognized that decades ago, and so they started to wear business suits and tone down their rhetoric a bit, but that didn’t really work either because people could still see through what they were trying to do. And the latest generation of neo-Nazis have tried to advance the movement through trolling, memes, humor, body building “chad” culture, et cetera. And that was probably the most success that they’ve ever had because Nazi memes became one of the most popular memes back in 2015-2017.
But when Charlottesville happened and the public got to see several hundred neo-Nazis carrying torches, chanting neo-Nazi slogans, fighting it out with leftists in the streets, and even driving a car into a group of degenerate communists, the ironic online neo-Nazism was no longer cool because people saw that it was manifesting itself in the real world. And then of course no meme can last forever regardless of how funny it is. The neo-Nazi meme culture has become stale by now, and so the neo-Nazi attempts to spread their ideology through meme culture isn’t going to really work anymore.
And because you probably have to have a few screws loose in order to publicly out yourself as a neo-Nazi in the modern era, and because ideological movements tend to attract eccentric people in general, the types of people that are showing up to neo-Nazi events can’t exactly be trusted to conduct themselves in a manner which would be appealing to the general public. That’s why it’s arguably counterproductive to engage in real world activism at this time. Not only are the autists in our ranks making the rest of us look bad, but their penchant for violence is getting the rest of us banned online, which is seriously harming our recruitment efforts.
Also, it’s getting kind of cringe for the newest generation of neo-Nazis to view themselves as intellectuals just because they’re relatively well informed and well read on certain issues. When one looks at the actual historical Nazis, they were genuinely intelligent and clever. They created highly successful corporations and businesses which are still around today. And they literally took us to the Moon. Reading Nietzsche doesn’t make you smart. Graduating at the top of your class, creating highly successful businesses and works of art, infiltrating and climbing to the top of extremely important institutions, creating networks of influence, et cetera, is real intelligence. That’s what the neo-Nazi movement should be aspiring to. Getting buff in the gym or creating a relatively successful social media account isn’t enough to actually affect change in the real world.
And while I’m perfectly aware of the fact that not everyone has the natural ability to become a CEO of an important tech company, at the very least you can aspire to not do damage to the movement by making the rest of us look like evil and retarded nutjobs. If you don’t understand the importance of tactical cucking in relation to optics and rhetoric, then you’re a detriment to the movement. You can accomplish far more by being a crypto and leading a productive life than by proudly flying your freak flag for the rest of the world to see and cucking yourself by making yourself unemployable.
And while this next suggestion might be highly offensive to both Jews and neo-Nazis, but I actually think that neo-Nazis should emulate the Jews. Jews are a very, very tiny percentage of the human population, and yet they managed to infiltrate and take over academia, the news media, the entertainment industry, the criminal-justice system, the book publishing industry, the financial system, the government, the political process, countless NGOs, countless corporations, et cetera. Jews have proven that the type of soft power that they skillfully wield is ultimately much more effective than the type of brute hard power that neo-Nazis are typically after. And it’s a sustainable type of power because the masses don’t realize that they’re being subverted and exploited, whereas neo-Nazis goosestepping down the street is a way more blatant form of coercion that people are much more likely to resist.
The real battle space isn’t on the streets of Charlottesville or wherever, it’s in the mind of the average White person. And right now Jews are curb stomping neo-Nazis into oblivion when it comes to reaching and influencing as many minds as possible. And even when it comes to real world conflict, Jews still got you beat because even though Jews tend to be physically and numerically weak, they’ve managed to win over much more powerful allies – such as the U.S. military. That’s the power of utilizing speech and ideas – rather than fists and bullets – as your primary weapon. And if you can successfully package and sell those weaponized ideas in things like movies and music, then it’s almost impossible for you to lose because your agenda becomes economically self-sustaining and mainstream.
Just look at how the Jews that control the comic book industry managed to turn far-right, neo-Nazi ideas into a cultural Trojan horse. Not only did they get filthy rich, but they got to utilize the popularity of their comic books in order to advance their ideological and ethnic agendas. There’s no reason why the far-right and neo-Nazis shouldn’t dominate the comic book industry because vigilantism and superhuman genetics are our values and ideas. Superman and Captain America are basically Aryans, and yet their Jewish creators turned them into anti-Nazi characters. That’s a perfect example of the importance of climbing the socioeconomic ladder and getting into positions of power and influence. And you’re not going to be able to make that climb as a torch-carrying neo-Nazi. The torch should burn inside you and fuel you to achieve academic, intellectual, technological, cultural, artistic, political, and economic greatness.
Another way in which we need to emulate Jews is to start thinking about our ideology as a product. There’s 3 main keys for successfully selling a product: 1) the product itself has to be good (which means that our ideology needs to be persuasive and actually effective in the real world), 2) packaging (nobody is going to buy a product covered in swastikas and Confederate flags), and 3) advertising (i.e., the ability to introduce as many people as possible to our worldview without turning them off). So, if you really want to spread your vision, then you need to act less like David Duke and more like Jeff Bezos. People like Andrew Anglin seem to have the mindset that any publicity is good publicity, and so they’re trying to reach as many eyeballs as possible through shock value. But that would be like thinking that news reports about your product hurting and even killing people is ultimately good for business because it’s introducing more people to your brand.