{"id":3183,"date":"2008-06-11T07:42:25","date_gmt":"2008-06-11T15:42:25","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/lukeford.net\/blog\/?p=3183"},"modified":"2008-06-11T13:57:36","modified_gmt":"2008-06-11T21:57:36","slug":"conversion-controversy-discussion-2","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/lukeford.net\/blog\/?p=3183","title":{"rendered":"Conversion Controversy Discussion"},"content":{"rendered":"

Rabbi Gil Student writes<\/a>: "The Torah in Motion discussion between R. Barry Freundel, R. Yitzchok Adlerstein and R. Seth Farber about the recent conversion controversy is now available for purchase (link<\/a> – "The Conversion Crisis – Panel"). I am almost done listening to it and have found it extremely helpful in understanding the different views. I think R. Freundel represents my view — uncomfortable with R. Druckman’s approach but shocked at his being totally dismissed and deemed invalid as a judge. But both R. Adlerstein and R. Farber present their views eloquently."<\/p>\n

<\/p>\n

Baruch Pelta comments: "The conversion conversation was a complex, but very interesting. R’ Adlerstein mostly focused on the halachic issues and said that he thinks R’ Sherman’s position seems to have sound halachic basis, but that the way he handled the issue –suddenly invalidating all conversions under the supervision of R’ Drukman without individual attention — seemed off; R’ Freundel mainly focused on that latter point, that the issue was handled incorrectly; and R’ Farber focused on how he felt that the entire thing was mainly a political war on Mizrachi, and one which will have negative consequences."<\/p>\n

Baruch Pelta of orthdoxfreelancers.blogspot.com<\/a> emails:<\/p>\n

The following text is what I could get of the transcript of the Conversion Conference. I missed the tail end because I had to leave at 11:00. I also might have missed or repeated a few lines by accident. The user "torah’" is R’ Seth Farber and the user "Marc" is Dr. Marc Shapiro. <\/div>\n
Connected to: fcomva01.megameeting.com<\/a><\/div>\n
\nAubrey  and Barbara Abrams >> (All): i hear no sound – is any one talking
\nModerator Elliot Malamet  >> (All): no one is talking. we are just setting up.
\nDavid Sal Brooklyn NY >> (All): 1
\nDavid Sal Brooklyn NY >> (All): 1
\nDavid Sal Brooklyn NY >> (All): yes
\nDavidZviAndYael >> (All): yes
\nTech Support Burlington >> (All): R. Farber will be joining us shortly…
\nRabbi Yitzchok Adlerstein >> (All): I don’t have sound
\nmel barenholtz  edison nj >> (All): I hear you but, apparently, R. Adlerstein is not hearing you.
\nSholom Eisenstat >> (All): please be patient as we get everyone online
\nModerator Elliot Malamet  >> (All): sorry for the delay everyone. we are working out a bunch of technical glitches.
\nTova Gutenberg Toronto >> (All): yes
\nGary Buchwald >> (All): YES
\nmel barenholtz  edison nj >> (All): Yes
\nAvi Tuchman Brookline MA >> (All): sounds fine
\nTova Gutenberg Toronto >> (All): we hear you
\nJudah Isaacs Oak Park Michigan >> (All): we hear you
\nTova Gutenberg Toronto >> (All): we cant’ talk
\nWallace Greene >> (All): we hear you
\nMarc >> (All): We hear you — try right clicking and then you can turn on your mike
\nMuttil >> (All): no one is talking
\nMarc >> (All): If you right click you will see a mike, click on the mike and then select your microphone
\nAndy LevyAjzenkopf >> (All): Everyone is coming through fine as far as I can tell.
\nModerator Elliot Malamet  >> (All): Hi everyone and welcome to the program. Unfortunately, all of the speakers except for Rabbi Freundel are having computer problems. We apologize for the delay.
\nAndy LevyAjzenkopf >> (All): Dr. Malamet, will you be available for follow-up questions tomorrow for my story in The CJN [Canadian Jewish News –BP]?
\nMarc >> (All): Elliot, Rabbi Adlerstein’s mike should work if he does what I said
\nWallace Greene >> (All): yes
\nWallace Greene >> (All): rumors of my demise are premature
\nSimcha St Paul >> (All): The Ashdod decision I believe also nulified the Jewishness as a result of children of the union.
\nJay Kelman Torah in Motion >> (All): welcome rabbi farber
\nJay Kelman Torah in Motion >> (All): not to be confused with e-TiM \ud83d\ude42
\ntorah >> (All): thanks
\ntorah >> (All): You are all coming through Very choppy
\nmel barenholtz  edison nj >> (All): the sound is coming through very clearly to me
\nWallace Greene >> (All): I know. Thank you. I was just paraphrasing Mark Twain
\nAvi Tuchman Brookline MA >> (All): Except for a very annoying "hum" which comes and goes while R Adlerstein is speaking, sound is very good.
\nJudah Isaacs Oak Park Michigan >> (All): Rabbi Avraham Sherman, author of the Rabbinical High Court decision, served for many years as an IDF rabbi, and once spent a sabbatical at Yeshiva University
\ntorah >> (All): very poor and choppy
\ntorah >> (All): tell him to "go down" on the join bar to the way he joined yesterday.
\nAndy LevyAjzenkopf >> (All): I don’t think Rabbi Farber has a mic or is hearing?
\nBaruch Pelta Atlanta >> (All): got you
\nTova Gutenberg Toronto >> (All): we hear you
\nrena bannett  >> (All): yes
\nWallace Greene >> (All): in and out
\ntim925 >> (All): Can Rabbi Farber speak louder
\ntorah >> (All): done
\nWallace Greene >> (All): The haredi position is inventing a new halakha, one not supported by  major poskim throughout the generations. This is politics, i.e. hijacking the Rabbanut, not halakha.
\nSusan Brandes >> (All): amazing technology … careful manouvering… Jack
\nSimcha St Paul >> (All): I support Wallace Greene but go one step further in suggestion that the for years the modern orthodox have been through fear of its own position encouraged the process. They have always been affraid more of what the Hareidim would say than fear of what Hashem would say.
\ntorah >> (All): i agree with it
\nAHR >> (All): hundreds of thousands of russian jews don’t need conversion, but hundreds of thousands of russian non-jews…
\nWallace Greene >> (All): How can the RCA cut a deal with those who delegitimize them ?
\nSimcha St Paul >> (All): Salachta lavoneinu ki Rav hoo!
\nBaruch Pelta Atlanta >> Moderator Elliot Malamet : Question, when you get the chance: at a point,, will the chareidim just invoke the Chazon Ish in Hitorrerut 41-42 on how one who distinguishes "between instruction regarding issur ve-heter and matters of legislation constitutes denigration of talmidei hakhamim and places one in the category of those who have no portion in the world to come?" All dayanim who don’t believe daas torah is a classical concept could be pasuled.
\nRb Barry Freundel >> (All): I meant the russians who claim to be jewish but are not or we are not sure
\nSimcha St Paul >> (All): Mipnei chataeinu galinu meiartzheinu.
\nbill  nj >> (All): i cannot imagine the geirim in place that were intermarried and converted after their intermarriage by RSK, RCOG, RMF and according to many Rambam. any fair reading of those cases has been clouded
\nRb Barry Freundel >> (All): they stopped delegitimizing us is the simplest answer
\nWallace Greene >> (All): < Rabbi Freundel: What happens when they stop accepting RCA kiddushin ?
\nRabbi Yitzchok Adlerstein >> (All): Noach, I just saw your question.  I agree fully that one who relies on a minority opinion should not chas v’shalom be called a heretic.  But RAL chose his words well.  He should not be called a heretic, but he can be called "wrong." Wrong halachic decisions have consequences. There are some minority opinions that ceasse to have effect halachically.
\nRb Barry Freundel >> (All): there are still attempts to delegitimize mo
\nbill  nj >> (All): the mosy important argument of RSG was that the rav in the city would NEVER have done the geirut and a geirut by either no one of of hedyotot
\nRb Barry Freundel >> (All): we are fighting that
\nBaruch Pelta Atlanta >> mk: or both?
\nBaruch Pelta Atlanta >> (All): or both?
\nWallace Greene >> (All): My basketball playing at YU was never recognized as such by anyone.
\nbill  nj >> (All): anyone who says that only R. Uziel is the source is simply misreading halakha, cetainly after the fact.  R. uziel was radical but his POV is not required
\nRb Barry Freundel >> (All): we worked hard to insure that mo was not delegitimized in any arena
\nSimcha St Paul >> (All): Re. Russians Ayt la
\nSimcha St Paul >> (All): Re Russian Ayt la’asot heifer Toratecha
\nBaruch Pelta Atlanta >> (All): in America, but in olam hachareidi yeshivot in Yerushalayim, the MO aren’t exactly stood up for by the main rabbanim
\nJudah Isaacs Oak Park Michigan >> (All): would Ruth have made it?
\ntorah >> (All): ilana: i still can’t hear
\nDavid Eisen in Bet Shemesh >> (All): Rabbi Adlerstein – With respect to the Langer affair, my understanding was that the virtually universal haredi opposition to R. Goren’s heter to the brother and sister lavo lakahal (with the notable exception of R. YE Henkin) stemmed far more from the opposition against R. Goren as a halachic innovator and as someone who embarrassed the prior batei din by exposing how they did not rule that the brother and sister were not mamzerim despite the significant amount of sfeikot that were heard by the dayanim as to Borokovsky’s bona fide gerut. I believe the Lubavitcher Rebbe was clear on this point in terms of his opposition to R. Goren on a personal level and far lass on the merits of the case of the Langer siblings.
\nWallace Greene >> (All): no
\ntorah >> (All): everyone
\nWallace Greene >> (All): Ruth’s behavior would have invalidated her "conversion"
\nJudah Isaacs Oak Park Michigan >> (All): i agree Wally
\ntorah >> (All): choppy
\ntorah >> (All): wireless
\nBaruch Pelta Atlanta >> Marc: no effect at all?
\nbill  nj >> (All): is RSK and RCOG and RMF a minority? each allowed a married person to be megayer! the sad part is that we are rewriting halakha
\nSimcha St Paul >> (All): Sad but it does seem that we must split the people because of its kanayim.
\nAHR >> (All): or because of left-wingers gone off the deep end
\nWallace Greene >> (All): The Hazon Is is minority since  conversion only requires hedyotot. Further, gerut cannot be rovoked retroactively–unlike kiddushin
\ntorah >> (All): I’m sorry. don’t hear the question
\nWallace Greene >> (All): Rav Lichtenstein is 100% correct.
\nbill  nj >> (All): RAL did not mean that this is necessarily a minority view, that itself is debated because of the circumstance<\/div>\n
Moderator Elliot Malamet  >> (All): if any of you have questions that you very much want posed, please write me and I will try to get some in.
\nBaruch Pelta Atlanta >> Moderator Elliot Malamet : Question, when you get the chance: at a point,, will the chareidim just invoke the Chazon Ish in Hitorrerut 41-42 on how one who distinguishes "between instruction regarding issur ve-heter and matters of legislation constitutes denigration of talmidei hakhamim and places one in the category of those who have no portion in the world to come?" All dayanim who don’t believe daas torah is a classical concept could be pasuled.
\nWallace Greene >> (All): Why has the RCA capitulated to the demands of a politicized Rabbanut ?
\nJudah Isaacs Oak Park Michigan >> (All): It reflects what Rabbi Farber spoke about "Lo Tunu Et HaGer:
\nNoach Stern in Melbourne AU >> (All): For R Farber – for the record what is the basis for describing the BD as governed by a "radical minority’? [Dorothy Dix]
\nModerator Elliot Malamet  >> (All): whoah. slow down. i JUST RECEIVED 8 QUESTIONS!
\ntorah >> (All): please write the question
\nBaruch Pelta Atlanta >> (All): btw, I have to leave at 11
\nJay Kelman Torah in Motion >> Baruch Pelta Atlanta: we are planning to end at 11:00
\nRb Barry Freundel >> (All): the rca did not capitulate to anything the rabbanut never asked for any input into the standards that we wrote
\nRb Barry Freundel >> (All): and the standards are those of many batei din prior to what we did
\nRb Barry Freundel >> (All): also there is more leeway in these standards than there was in those of the RCA of ten years ago<\/div>\n
Wallace Greene >> (All): The Hazon Is is minority since  conversion only requires hedyotot. Further, gerut cannot be rovoked retroactively–unlike kiddushin
\nRb Barry Freundel >> (All): there is acurriculum and a suggested reading list in seperste documents and we are working to revise it
\nWallace Greene >> (All): >Rabbi Freundel: Why all of a sudden are only certain rabbis acceptable ? If one joined Agudas HaRabbani, would that make him kosher ?
\nRb Barry Freundel >> (All): im not sure why you say only certain rabbanim are acceptable
\nbill  nj >> (All): rav chaim ozer thought it was revolutionary since they would vlearly NOT become religious
\nRb Barry Freundel >> (All): please read the gps document on this on the rca website
\nWallace Greene >> (All): Isn’t there a list of acceptable RCArabbis ?
\nWallace Greene >> (All): I read the document and it is very troubling.
\nRb Barry Freundel >> (All): a list of accepted ones but others can and are being added all the time
\nModerator Elliot Malamet  >> Baruch Pelta Atlanta: i’ll try yours next
\nBaruch Pelta Atlanta >> (All): thank you
\nRb Barry Freundel >> (All): there is acurriculum and a suggested reading list in seperste documents and we are working to revise it
\nWallace Greene >> (All): >Rabbi Freundel: Why all of a sudden are only certain rabbis acceptable ? If one joined Agudas HaRabbani, would that make him kosher ?
\nRb Barry Freundel >> (All): im not sure why you say only certain rabbanim are acceptable
\nRb Barry Freundel >> (All): a list of accepted ones but others can and are being added all the time
\nbill  nj >> (All): u do not need to agree to r. uziel to get to r. druckman’s position!
\nMarc >> (All): R. Dovid Zvi Hoffmann, R. Mosh Malka, R. Goren and others thought that in a shaat ha-dechak you can use a pilegesh.
\nLarry in Highland Park NJ >> (All): How can a potential ger find out who is on the list?  To what extent does the demand for quiet investigation mean abuses never come to light and so future gerim go to the same people and have the same problme
\nMarc >> (All): R. Dovid Zvi Hoffmann held the same view of R. Uziel.
\nbill  nj >> (All): r. uziel said it was a MITZVAH to be megayer – others saw it permissable because of circumstance<\/div>\n
Simcha St Paul >> (All): Let’s keep the entire process in pivate and in the back rooms where no one can see or hear what the Rabbanim are doing.
\nRb Barry Freundel >> (All): no just because he is attacked is not a reason for scrutiny but this is an appeals court that has some so standing
\nJudah Isaacs Oak Park Michigan >> (All): this happened with the concert fiasco in NY, and I think Rabbi Alderstein with all due respect, the problem is publicizing piskei halacha without getting everyone together to learn the true case<\/div>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Rabbi Gil Student writes: "The Torah in Motion discussion between R. Barry Freundel, R. Yitzchok Adlerstein and R. Seth Farber about the recent conversion controversy is now available for purchase (link – "The Conversion Crisis – Panel"). I am almost … Continue reading →<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"om_disable_all_campaigns":false,"_monsterinsights_skip_tracking":false,"_monsterinsights_sitenote_active":false,"_monsterinsights_sitenote_note":"","_monsterinsights_sitenote_category":0,"footnotes":""},"categories":[228],"tags":[6750,8891,945,3182,9406,7265,8890],"class_list":["post-3183","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-conversion","tag-conversion-controversy","tag-conversion-crisis","tag-gil-student","tag-marc-shapiro","tag-negative-consequences","tag-seth-farber","tag-torah-in-motion"],"aioseo_notices":[],"aioseo_head":"\n\t\t\n\t\n\t\n\t\n\t\n\t\n\t\n\t\t\n\t\t\n\t\t\n\t\t\n\t\t\n\t\t\n\t\t\n\t\t\n\t\t\n\t\t\n\t\t\n\t\t\n\t\t\n\t\t\n\t\t\n\t\t\n\t\t\n\t\t\n\t\t\n\t\t