{"id":100,"date":"2007-02-04T02:33:45","date_gmt":"2007-02-04T10:33:45","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/lukeford.net\/blog\/?p=100"},"modified":"2011-01-09T21:08:38","modified_gmt":"2011-01-10T05:08:38","slug":"im-interviewed-by-progressiveadventismcom","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/lukeford.net\/blog\/?p=100","title":{"rendered":"I’m Interviewed By ProgressiveAdventism.com"},"content":{"rendered":"

Loma Linda University religion professor Julius Nam asks me about my journey from Adventism to Judaism<\/a>.<\/p>\n

As the interview is no longer online, I am republishing it here with the comments:<\/p>\n

\"LukeBorn in 1966 as the third child of Seventh-day Adventist theologian Desmond Ford in Kurri Kurri, New South Wales, Australia, Luke Ford<\/a> spent the first 14 years of his life on the campuses of Avondale College and Pacific Union College—until his father’s dismissal from PUC stemming from the controversial position he took on the investigative judgment doctrine. After graduating from Placer High School in Auburn, California, in 1984, Luke Ford attended Sierra College in Rocklin, California, and University of California at Los Angeles. While at UCLA, Ford was deeply influenced by Jewish radio host and lecturer Dennis Prager which resulted in his conversion to Judaism in 1992. After struggling to break into acting and mainstream journalism, Ford’s career took a shocking turn in 1997 when he launched a blog devoted to reporting on the pornography industry. His controversial style of reporting quickly earned him the nickname, “Matt Drudge of Porn.” Since 2001, his blogging interest has expanded to larger social, cultural, political, and religious issues. He has also written four books including XXX-Communicated: A Rebel Without a Shul<\/a>, a personal memoir, and A History of X: 100 Years of Sex in Film<\/a>. Ford continues to be active online through several websites and blogs. His official website (which does not contain pornographic content) is LukeFord.net<\/a>, which includes his unpublished autobiography.<\/em><\/p>\n

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Could you describe in a nutshell why you left Adventism?<\/strong><\/p>\n

I was never into the New Testament. I saw it as a downer. I never really got Jesus or Paul, and the otherworldliness of the New Testament. Growing up, I read Churchill, Cromwell, and King David—people who made a difference in this world. They were my heroes. I could never get excited about soteriology, mechanics of salvation, heavenly sanctuary, the world that is to come. There always were these nutters around Adventism because of its eschatological bent. They liked Adventists because they were talking about the world coming to an end. That belief didn’t attract me. So I knew Christianity wasn’t for me. I loved many people in it. I’m still a vegee; I don’t drink; I don’t take caffeine or swear. I stick to many SDA practices. But I could never get excited about the otherworldliness of Adventism.<\/p>\n

Then, why not seek some other less-otherworldly expression of Christianity? Why Judaism? What attracted you to it?<\/strong><\/p>\n

I went through a phase of atheism and communism. Then I encountered Dennis Prager through radio, who is a Jew. I saw that Jews have always been at the center of what’s going on. I liked being in the middle of where things are. Also, Judaism focuses on behavior rather than esoteric theology. I think that works. It provides a step-by-step detailed system for making a better world. It’s focused on the things of this world—what we can do now. I never had a serious conversation with a Jew about when the Messiah will come. That’s not very important. I appreciated the this-worldly emphasis of Judaism.<\/p>\n

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Among Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform Judaism, which “denomination” of Judaism did you end up in?<\/strong><\/p>\n

I went through all three denominations. Today, I mainly attend Orthodox synagogues and most of my friends are Orthodox.<\/p>\n

What lies at the core of your experience of Judaism?<\/strong><\/p>\n

This has evolved over time. First, it was the wisdom of the Jewish tradition. For example, there’s the shopkeeper law that says you can’t ask about the price of an item that you won’t buy. That says, you can’t fool people about your intentions. As time went on, my experience with the community became very intense. The Jewish people became my people. This means more than belonging to a religion. For example, during the Cold War, the Soviet Jewry were persecuted much less than Christians in Russia. But Jews around the world went crazy over this and did everything they could to help their people. Meanwhile, Christians did next to nothing. Having your own nation in Israel and the experience of being a Jew creates a bond (though it can be a pain in the neck) that is terribly profound. It really creates an awareness of those around you. At the same time, I must say that the ambivalence that I felt toward the Adventist community got rolled over to Judaism. I was a rebel in the Adventist community, and I’m a rebel now in the Jewish community. But this is still my people and my community.<\/p>\n

If that’s the case, why not stay in Adventism? Why go through all the trouble of conversion?<\/strong><\/p>\n

I’ve always been a social misfit—both as a kid and now at age 40. But I believe in the community that I belong to now, even if it doesn’t always believe in me. I have too many problems with the beliefs of Christianity to want to go back. I’m willing to sacrifice for this cause that I believe in.<\/p>\n

But if it’s the this-worldliness of Judaism and the community that it provides, doesn’t Adventism offer the same? Couldn’t you live with the parts of Adventism that you don’t like—much the same way that you function within Judaism?<\/strong><\/p>\n

The primary thing is, like all forms of Christianity, the set of doctrines that Adventism has. That God cares more about how you believe about him than how you act. That is so repellent to me. For example, there was a Christian pastor who flew to Israel to visit [Adolf] Eichmann in his final days. When the pastor arrived at the airport, reporters asked him, “If Eichmann confessed his sins and believed in Christ, would he be saved?” He said, “Yes.” Then he was asked, “What about the six million Jews who died because of him? Would they be saved if they didn’t believe in Christ?” He replied, “No!” I could never relate to this kind of a religion. As far as the rules of behavior in Adventism, they never bothered me. I have no problem with the laws in Adventism. Every group has the right to establish its own set of rules. All these very, very strict laws about movies, dancing, eating, drinking, I can understand it.<\/p>\n

But you know, Adventists are much more relaxed about those standards these days.<\/strong><\/p>\n

I know. That’s true in Judaism, too. But those who go to movies, go dancing, and eat and drink whatever they want, they’re not gonna stay SDAs. They as individuals might stay, but their children and grandchildren probably won’t. If you live that way, you’re not going to make the necessary sacrifices. You’re not going to inculcate the distinctives that are necessary to stay Adventist. They’re not going to matter anymore, and their grandchildren will be flushed down the toilet of Adventist history. You need to believe that your religion is the chosen one to stay and make sacrifices to keep the religion going. The assimilators in Loma Linda and their children will be gone. It’s the Africans and Third World Adventists and the fundamentalists who will take over.<\/p>\n

Let’s shift gears and go back in history to 1980. Could you tell me what it was like to be in Glacier View in 1980 while the Adventist church leaders made decisions on your father’s fate in the church? You sat through the meetings, I understand.<\/strong><\/p>\n

The primary experience for me was emotional—beyond the intellectual. My participation in the community, particularly the Angwin community (which remains as the happiest memory of my life), was being threatened. I was very upset.<\/p>\n

Then, I saw that for many people there, it was one of the most important moments in their lives, particularly for my father. My father was on a suicide mission. There’s no way he could get away with it. You cannot dismiss the central platform of the group that you’re part of and think that you’ll be allowed to stay. There was no way he could remain. All the people who agreed with him were being smart with their mouths shut. That way, they got to keep their positions. You don’t need to voice all your objections publicly the way my dad did. There was a lot of passion in the room, and they were telling my dad to recant. But my dad’s immovable. It’s trying to tell the ocean not to advance on its tide. So it was inevitable that they were going to throw him out and that he wasn’t going to change.<\/p>\n

What was the most difficult thing about being Luke Ford in the aftermath of Glacier View?<\/strong><\/p>\n

Losing what I loved. Being so lonely. We moved to godforsaken Auburn. I hardly knew anybody there. I was so lonely from age 14 to 28 when I converted to Judaism. It was a time of sheer, unadulterated loneliness. Without friends life is not worth living. We were cast into diaspora. Horrible. Absolutely awful. I got a D average in my freshman year in high school. I was in no man’s land.<\/p>\n

Do you ever think about what might have happened if your father had been more flexible toward the church—and vice versa—and you had continued to live within the Adventist subculture?<\/strong><\/p>\n

If I continued to live it! My love for the PUC community was so intense that I probably never would’ve converted and gone through the great extremes of my life. I would’ve had a much saner and healthier and happier life.<\/p>\n

Since 1997, you’ve reported on the porn industry while maintaining your Jewish religiosity. How have you been you able to reconcile the two that are worlds apart?<\/strong><\/p>\n

Right. They are not reconcilable. As an enlightened journalist, I can rationalize that there is no forbidden knowledge, no subject unworthy to be written about. But as a religious person, I know that there are huge areas of life that are out of bounds. There’s tremendous amount of knowledge that is forbidden, that you just shouldn’t know. Whether it’s Judaism, or Islam, or Christianity, they all abhor pornography. Pornography is against religion and civilization. It’s an abhorrent, repellent, shocking thing from a religious perspective. I can intellectualize that it’s not the greatest sin, but as a practical matter, socially and emotionally, pornography is a topic that is contrary to religion, propriety, and civilization.<\/p>\n

Because I was so isolated in my teens, in part because of the religious structures that I grew up in, my first encounter with sexuality was through Playboy and Penthouse. It had been inculcated in me that sexual sin was the greatest sin. Not in so many words, but that’s how we were made to feel. For example, the worst sin for pastors to commit was adultery. So I’ve had a fascination with the worst that one can do. As an adult, I was struggling with making a living as a writer. As someone who doesn’t take orders and who chose living as an independent writer, the best paid thing was writing on the pornography industry. If I am offered a job tomorrow for the L.A. Times, I would take that job in an instant.<\/p>\n

Pornography is not something that is important at all in our society. But issues dealing with pornography are important. Such as, how men interact with women; porn addiction (one in 10 young men is a porn addict is my guess); the health implications; AIDS and other STDs; cultural problems of the porn industry; organized crime; the extent of government censorship; the type of people who make porn. In some ways, porn people are the most honest people in the world. They’re outlaws, but they are truthful. It’s kind of exhilarating to listen to their stories—amazing stories.<\/p>\n

Are you able to support yourself financially simply by reporting on the porn industry?<\/strong><\/p>\n

Since 1997, I’ve made an independent living through blogging. Aside from Matt Drudge, I believe I’m the only one. I’ve done research for A Current Affair<\/em>. I’ve assisted 60 Minutes<\/em> in 2003 for their report on the porn industry. I’ve also done research for Fortune 500 companies.<\/p>\n

I understand you stopped reporting on porn for a while in-between?<\/strong><\/p>\n

On August 8, 2001, I sold lukeford.com because of the social, psychic toll that it was having on me. I vowed I would never report on porn personalities again. But I immediately started LukeFord.net<\/a> and kept on blogging but not about porn. I blogged about Hollywood, religion, etc. From the end of 2002 until the present, I have on and off written or researched for other media about the porn industry or related topics, but I deal with the legal, moral, medical and social issues that arise from this vice. I haven’t watched a porn film in 8 years. It’s like someone writing about organized crime. They don’t participate in it when they write about it. I also report on Judaism and other cultural issues on lukeford.net. There are some rabbis whose careers ended because I exposed the problems that they were having, like sleeping with women in their congregations.<\/p>\n

How do your rabbi and fellow congregants feel about what you do?<\/strong><\/p>\n

I never talk about it. Every synagogue has a different dynamic, so I know that some synagogues will not want me there. I spread out the gift of my presence. I’ve been able to find community. I use my Hebrew name, so most people would not know or care to know that sometimes I write about such distasteful issues. For anyone who does know, they know that I don’t write about the porn industry exclusively, that I write about issues surrounding pornography and many other issues. It’s not like the porn industry comes up in my daily conversation. It has no place where I live and I don’t look at it as having any part of my real world, my true inner sacred world with my friends. It is just one of many gross things that a reporter may deal in.<\/p>\n

How did your father react to your conversion to Judaism and then to your choice of career? What’s your relationship with him like now?<\/strong><\/p>\n

My conversion to Judaism was the worst thing that could have ever happened to him. Or maybe someone asking him, “Is your son the porn king?” was the worst. I was the easiest kid to raise, kind of placid around the house. But in adulthood, I caused the most amount of pain. You know, you just make decisions, and you blow up relationships. I’ve done him incalculable amount of pain and damage. My father’s birthday is February 2nd, which is today. I exchange emails with him, maybe several times a year. I exchange emails with my mother on average probably once a week. We’ve always been on speaking terms.<\/p>\n

What do you miss the most about being Adventist?<\/strong><\/p>\n

The food. The community. The friends that I had at PUC. My 8th grade year. I stayed in Angwin that year, while my dad was given time off to write in Washington, D.C. I stayed with a friend’s family. Life was normal. I had normal relations with people. I could just hang out and not be Dr. Ford’s son. Ironically, with my parents gone, that year was the happiest time of my life. In high school, I would always go back to PUC every summer and hang out.<\/p>\n<\/p><\/div>\n

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About this entry<\/h2>\n
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Title: Interlogue #15 ~ Luke Ford<\/p>\n

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Published:<\/dt>\n
04.02<\/dd>\n<\/dl>\n
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Category:<\/dt>\n
Interviews<\/a><\/dd>\n<\/dl><\/div>\n<\/p><\/div>\n
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Comments are closed<\/h2>\n

\t\t\t\t\tComments are currently closed on this entry.<\/span>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n

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  1. \n\t\t\t
    \n\t\t\t\t    LUKE FORD » I’m Interviewed By ProgressiveAdventism.com<\/a><\/span>
    \n\t\t\t\t04.02.07 \/ 2pm<\/span>
    \n\t\t\t<\/cite><\/p>\n
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    […] Loma Linda University religion professor Julius Nam asks me about my journey from Adventism to Judaism. […]<\/p>\n<\/p><\/div>\n

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  2. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n

    \t\t\t\tYisroel Pensack<\/a><\/span>
    \n\t\t\t\t04.02.07 \/ 3pm<\/span>
    \n\t\t\t<\/cite><\/p>\n

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    This was a very informative interview of an excellent journalist, a clear thinker, an honest man and a valuable member of the Jewish people.<\/p>\n<\/p><\/div>\n

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  3. \n\t\t\t
    \n\t\t\t\tcliff goldstein<\/span>
    \n\t\t\t\t04.02.07 \/ 5pm<\/span>
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    Luke–<\/p>\n

    My name is Clifford Goldstein and I found Jesus while living on a Kibbutz in Israel 26 years ago. Grew up in a non-practicing Jewish home in Miamii Beach and have now been at the General Conference for 23 years.<\/p>\n

    Funny, how things work out, isn’t it?<\/p>\n

    I’ve heard of your journey. If you ever want to talk, feel free to e-mail me, goldsteinc@gc.adventist.org<\/a> Would love to dialogue with you.<\/p>\n

    Found the interview fascinating . . .<\/p>\n

    Shalom aleykah<\/p>\n<\/p><\/div>\n

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  4. \n\t\t\t
    \n\t\t\t\tDennis<\/span><\/p>\n

    \t\t\t\t04.02.07 \/ 7pm<\/span>
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    Hi Luke:
    \nThanks for the interview.
    \nGod is greater than what Adventist church teaches him to be.
    \nThere are many people who now begin to understand what your dad was talking about.
    \nThe Church was terrible at Glacier View.<\/p>\n

    God bless you in your journey.<\/p>\n<\/p><\/div>\n

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  5. \n\t\t\t
    \n\t\t\t\tIan McG<\/span><\/p>\n

    \t\t\t\t04.02.07 \/ 10pm<\/span>
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    Luke Ford makes the same basic point that I made in my earlier comment on the Ron Lawson interview.<\/p>\n

    “But those who go to movies, go dancing, and eat and drink whatever they want, they’re not gonna stay SDAs. They as individuals might stay, but their children and grandchildren probably won’t. If you live that way, you’re not going to make the necessary sacrifices. You’re not going to inculcate the distinctives that are necessary to stay Adventist. They’re not going to matter anymore, and their grandchildren will be flushed down the toilet of Adventist history. You need to believe that your religion is the chosen one to stay and make sacrifices to keep the religion going.”<\/p>\n

    That’s right. You need to believe in the uniqueness and absolute remnancy of Adventism to stay and teach your children to stay. Otherwise, your kids will see that your Adventism is simply cultural Adventism, and many of them will choose some other club to belong to – like Judaism.<\/p>\n<\/p><\/div>\n

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  6. \n\t\t\t
    \n\t\t\t\tGlenn<\/span>
    \n\t\t\t\t05.02.07 \/ 6am<\/span>
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    “I was never into the New Testament. I saw it as a downer. I never really got Jesus or Paul, and the otherworldliness of the New Testament. Growing up, I read Churchill, Cromwell, and King David\u00e2\u20ac\u201dpeople who made a difference in this world. They were my heroes. I could never get excited about soteriology, mechanics of salvation, heavenly sanctuary, the world that is to come. There always were these nutters around Adventism because of its eschatological bent. They liked Adventists because they were talking about the world coming to an end. That belief didn’t attract me. So I knew Christianity wasn’t for me. I loved many people in it. I’m still a vegee; I don’t drink; I don’t take caffeine or swear. I stick to many SDA practices. But I could never get excited about the otherworldliness of Adventism.”<\/p>\n

    It’s a bit shocking, yet somewhat refreshing, to hear someone other than an atheist call the New Testament a “downer” and not being able to “get into” Jesus and Paul. And the other worldliness of SDAism and Christianity overall is something else I’ve struggled with. While the message has a certain appeal, at the end of the day it sounds as if Christians are claiming and are urging others to experience a “relationship” with an imaginery friend. <\/p>\n

    “…That God cares more about how you believe about him than how you act. That is so repellent to me. For example, there was a Christian pastor who flew to Israel to visit [Adolf] Eichmann in his final days. When the pastor arrived at the airport, reporters asked him, “If Eichmann confessed his sins and believed in Christ, would he be saved?” He said, “Yes.” Then he was asked, “What about the six million Jews who died because of him? Would they be saved if they didn’t believe in Christ?” He replied, “No!” I could never relate to this kind of a religion.”<\/p>\n

    I’ve found this to be a problem in my own Christian experience, too. It is especially pronounced in Calvinistic forms of evangelicalism. It’s all very cognitive; the suggestion that you have to believe the right thing about the atonement, salvation, or the prophesies. Having dialogued with several devout Calvinists I can partially reconcile this kind of thinking. But I’m far from comfortable with it at some basic level.<\/p>\n<\/p><\/div>\n

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    \t\t\t
    \n\t\t\t\tBob Rigsby<\/span>
    \n\t\t\t\t05.02.07 \/ 9am<\/span>
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    Julius:
    \nAre you going to keep finding, and parading before us, this vast array of characters with ties to Adventism??<\/p>\n

    I SURE HOPE SO!!!!
    \nWith every one my God gets a little bigger. Fascinating perspectives here; and I bet most\/all of us who read this interview could tap in to just aobut everything Luke said! Boy we Adventist’s sure don’t know how to live with “dissent” do we…
    \nI used to work with a devout SDA surgeon who was black. ANd he told me once about his son who was very troubled by Adventism, rebelled, and eventually converted to Rastafarianism (if the Rasta’s can be called an “ism”) because it seemed to have a place for HIM — as a black man. (Having grown up in Ethiopia — and actually meeting Haile Sellassie as a kid, this obvoiusly held great interest to me!) And the son, having found his “place to belong” began to flourish!!<\/p>\n

    IMAGINE!!<\/p>\n<\/p><\/div>\n

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  8. \n\t\t\t
    \n\t\t\t\t    TrudyJ<\/a><\/span><\/p>\n

    \t\t\t\t05.02.07 \/ 5pm<\/span>
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    What jumped out to me from this interview is the same paragraph that Ian McG quoted … though perhaps for a different reason. Is it really true that the children of liberal Adventists are destined to leave the church? Do more conservative Adventist parents have a better “retention rate”? Is there actual data on this? My anecdotal survey of what I’ve seen with my friends suggests there may be some truth to it, but it’s not enough evidence to convince me. Perhaps because I don’t want to believe it. <\/p>\n

    If it is true, why? Why do young people have to believe in exclusivity and a “We have The Truth” brand of Adventism in order to stay with it? Are the positives the SDA church has to offer not strong enough without the negative reinforcement — the fear of being lost if you “leave the faith?”<\/p>\n

    I’m a liberal Adventist with two young children. My first priority for my children’s faith journey is of course that I want them to accept Jesus as their Savior and choose a Christian life. But yes, I would also be happy if that were within the SDA church. Am I doomed to “lose them” from “the fold” if I don’t teach them it’s a sin to get your frigging ears pierced? And if so, what have I lost?<\/p>\n

    I am sick to death of being given the impression that liberal Adventist = lukewarm Adventist — that because I’m not convinced of every traditional doctrine, I am not committed to my church. I think I am passionate about my faith and I hope to share that with my children. I hope there is enough positive in what I am passing on to them to make them want to stay. I don’t understand why strictness and exclusivity are supposedly the only way to keep our children fenced-in to the Adventist church.<\/p>\n<\/p><\/div>\n

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  9. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n

    \t\t\t\tJulius<\/a><\/span>
    \n\t\t\t\t05.02.07 \/ 7pm<\/span>
    \n\t\t\t<\/cite><\/p>\n

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    Talking to Luke made me think a lot about my Adventist experience. <\/p>\n

    First, I found several parallels in Luke’s story to mine. I too am a son of a theologian, and have lived all my life with a certain burden that comes with it. It’s hard to think of my identity apart from who my father is. Like Luke, I too moved right at 9th grade (to the US for me) which was a great earth-shaking, life-changing experience for me. I too felt ripped apart from my friends and my identity as it was until then. I longed and pined for the Adventist college campus that I’d left (Korean Union College for me). I too felt this immense, intense loneliness throughout high school, which greatly heightened (thankfully in retrospect, but painfully then) my introspective side which at times bordered on fatalism. I too had visions of becoming a journalist and worked full-time as a reporter for six months until the hard nightlife that came with the work broke me down. (This blog is a kind of a substitute for that dream, I suppose.) Personally, pornography is an issue that I too have struggled with in my life, especially in my 20s. Its ghost still haunts me. In 1992, I too left Adventism; existentialism was a big influence. But unlike Luke I returned a year later after a particular mystical experience led to a paradigm shift. Though I don’t presume to understand Luke in my brief acquaintance with him, I think I get Luke.<\/p>\n

    There’s another level where I found Luke’s experiences to be powerfully relevant. When we moved to Loma Linda from PUC last summer, my two boys were 11 and 12. We knew it’d be hard, but didn’t think it would be so hard on them. They still miss Angwin and PUC Elementary incredibly. They’re still IMing their friends at PUCE every day. They still tell me and Iris that they want to return there in 3 1\/2 years after my wife is done with dental school. I pray that this re-location will not result in the kind of dis-location vis-a-vis Adventism that Luke experienced.<\/p>\n

    There’s yet on another level where Luke’s (and Desmond’s) story touches me. And it has much to do with this blog itself. Recently, a friend asked me if I thought running this blog would have a bearing on my career and standing in the church negatively. I suppose that’s a possibility. It may already be that certain doors have closed. Call me a coward and a compromiser, but I can’t imagine my own Glacier View (not that I see myself having the same stature as Desmond Ford to be taken so seriously by the church hierarchy)—if I think that my sons will go through what Luke went through. I know this is a questionable statement to make as an academic … but being right is not worth that much. When it comes down to it, Julius the father will trump Julius the theologian. <\/p>\n

    Furthermore, like Trudy, I was disturbed by Luke’s assertion that liberal parents will lead their children out of Adventism. Frankly, that worries me quite a bit. I am terrified by the notion that my open, non-legalistic (at least that’s what I’d like to think) way of raising my two boys, 12 and 11, will end up in leading them out of Adventism. I was thinking I was on my way to raising better-adjusted Adventists than I ever was. (And whatever happened to the notion that conservative parents beget liberal kids, and liberal parents beget conservative kids?) Not that I’m necessarily taking Luke as an expert on the subject … but I heard in him echoes of what my more conservative friends and family have been saying … and I was and am terrified. <\/p>\n

    I shudder to think that my children will one day choose to leave Adventism. I can embrace the possibility intellectually, but emotionally it’s abhorrent to me. Not because I think they’ll lose their salvation or somehow mess up their lives simply by that decision, but because who I am, what I am, and what I desire for them are all so closely and intricately connected to this community that I love to death. <\/p>\n

    I don’t want to force Adventism on them, but I pray to God everyday that my passion for the Adventist expression of Christianity will rub off on them and that they would embrace it the way I have come to (without having to spend some time in an intellectual\/existential desert the way I did). <\/p>\n

    I began this little testimony by talking about how my identity is deeplly wrapped around who my father is. I guess a big part of who I am and what I aspire to be is wrapped around how my children will turn out, especially vis-a-vis Adventism.<\/p>\n

    How will it all end? What will come of the decisions that I make today? I suppose this is where faith and trust enter in. I suppose this is how we learn to appreciate more deeply Divine Parenthood.<\/p>\n<\/p><\/div>\n

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  10. \n\t\t\t
    \n\t\t\t\t    David R. Larson<\/a><\/span><\/p>\n

    \t\t\t\t05.02.07 \/ 10pm<\/span>
    \n\t\t\t<\/cite><\/p>\n

    \n

    As one of Julius’ colleagues in the School of Religion at Loma Linda University, I am happy to assure anyone who wonders that he is in no trouble for sponsoring his blog or anything else. We agree that he is doing excellent work! When we were considering whether to hire him, our first conclusion was that we would take him on for a year and judge things after that. The more we discussed it, the more we thought that we would like to have him around for, say, two years. Then we made it the four years his wife will be in dental school. Finally, it dawned us on that the only right thing would be to offer him a permanent position leading to tenure. Not one word of regret has ever been whispered among us. More doors are opening for Julius than closing!<\/p>\n<\/p><\/div>\n

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  11. \n\t\t\t
    \n\t\t\t\tJ David Newman<\/span>
    \n\t\t\t\t06.02.07 \/ 6am<\/span>
    \n\t\t\t<\/cite><\/p>\n
    \n

    What an interview!!! There is so much I could comment on but I will stick to one point made by several people–leaving adventism. The core issue is defining who Adventists are. We have either made it very simiple–Sanctuary–or very complex–Sabbath, no jewelry, no unclean foods, Sanctuary, Spirit of Prophecy, baptism by immersion and so on.<\/p>\n

    As one who took over the Damascus Church after Richard Fredericks left the denomination I have done a huge amuount of reflection on this subject. Why am I an Adventist? I have boiled it down to five areas: Salvation, Seventh-day Sabbath, Second Coming, Scripture, and State of the Dead. When one REALLY understands the true sugnificance of the Sabbath I don’t see how anyone would give it up. Regarding children of conservative and liberal children leaving, it would be fascinating to see the results. From personal experience I have seen just as many kids of conservatives leave as well as those of liberals.<\/p>\n<\/p><\/div>\n

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  12. \n\t\t\t
    \n\t\t\t\tJoselito Coo<\/span><\/p>\n

    \t\t\t\t06.02.07 \/ 6am<\/span>
    \n\t\t\t<\/cite><\/p>\n

    \n

    Julius, where you do you attend church and have your name listed as a member? Why so? For whatever reason, although I don’t endorse it for I’m for integration, the retention rate among young people in ethnic congregations is higher compared to Asian Americans attending mainstream churches.<\/p>\n<\/p><\/div>\n

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  13. \n\t\t\t
    \n\t\t\t\t    Julius<\/a><\/span>
    \n\t\t\t\t06.02.07 \/ 8am<\/span>
    \n\t\t\t<\/cite><\/p>\n
    \n

    Thank you, Dave Larson, for your affirming and encouraging words. I’m embarrassed now, having been perhaps a little too transparent. But reading your kind response does uplift my spirits. It’s only been 7 months since I got here, but I feel like we’ve been friends for much longer time. Thanks for opening your heart and life to me on several occasions. It’s been a great joy and delight to learn from you and serve the Lord together with you and our other colleagues at LLU. Frankly, I imagined LLU to be a buttoned-up, impersonally professional place where everyone does his\/her own thing. But I’ve found great warmth, lots of laughter, and deep spiritual (even emotional at times) devotion in my colleagues which I’ve come to appreciate very much.<\/p>\n

    David Newman: I agree with you that finding out how children of “conservative” and “liberal” parents turn out would make a fascinating study. Sounds like something Valuegenesis 3 can look into, if there’s going to be one. I appreciate your more “essential” approach to Adventism. I share similar sentiments. I’m recalling now an article by George Knight in Ministry where he questioned whether the 27 (then) was a bead of strings or pyramid or something like that. I think the next question for you and me would be to articulate and propose how the 5 essentials that you speak of relate with the 28. Would the five function as a “creed”? What that would mean, etc.<\/p>\n

    Joselito: That’s very interesting. Having worked as a pastor of Korean churches for 7 years and attended a Korean church for most of my life, I do see the strong practical benefit of religion and culture being tied together, though I too believe and have argued for de-segregation into genuinely community-based CONgregations. Do you have data on the retention rate you speak of? If so, could you share it? And oh, we currently attend the Loma Linda University Church. That’s where my children have found community among peers (mostly from their school, LLA).<\/p>\n<\/p><\/div>\n

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  14. \n\t\t\t
    \n\t\t\t\t    Tompaul<\/a><\/span>
    \n\t\t\t\t06.02.07 \/ 9am<\/span><\/p>\n

    \t\t\t<\/cite><\/p>\n

    \n

    Religion based on external features is always difficult to pass on. Religion based on internal principles that give actual meaning to life and can be creatively adapted for and by every personality, rather than just the imposed meaning of a societal marker, is religion that’s vital enough to be transmitted.<\/p>\n<\/p><\/div>\n

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  15. \n

    \t\t\t
    \n\t\t\t\tJoselito Coo<\/span>
    \n\t\t\t\t06.02.07 \/ 2pm<\/span>
    \n\t\t\t<\/cite><\/p>\n

    \n

    I read about the higher rate of retention among young people coming from ethnic congregations in a study published in the Adventist Review by either V. Bailey Gillespie or Roger L. Dudley. Not sure which one. Sorry, I’ve been unsuccessful trying to access their data online. Check it out with them if you have the opportunity for I don’t know them personally. But I’ll keep looking for a hard copy.<\/p>\n

    Your declaring yourself as somewhat of a liberal won’t sit well with your own ethnic community, I know. However, you’re blessed to have a supportive group of likeminded colleagues in Loma Linda and Pacific Union College. These schools have been known as relatively “safe” havens for people like you.<\/p>\n<\/p><\/div>\n

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  16. \n

    \t\t\t
    \n\t\t\t\t    Julius<\/a><\/span>
    \n\t\t\t\t06.02.07 \/ 2pm<\/span>
    \n\t\t\t<\/cite><\/p>\n

    \n

    Thanks for the reference. I don’t recall that from Gillespie’s stuff, but I’ll take a look. I even had him come speak at a conference I helped organize on Valuegenesis and the Asian Adventist church, but perhaps I missed that part.<\/p>\n

    Actually, leaning toward being more liberal sits quite well within my ethnic Korean community – probably more than with the ethnic White or Black community – because there is a wide spectrum within it. When it comes to my peers (50 and under, especially) in the U.S., I’d say the Korean young adult\/youth on the whole are much more left-leaning than most other groups in No. America. That’s something many people don’t realize….<\/p>\n

    On the liberal thing, though, I don’t really know what to call myself. My children remind me all the time that I’m not liberal, especially in the way I uphold traditional standards. For them, liberal is a cool thing that their dad can never be! Many of my friends don’t think of me as a “liberal” per se…just lazy, maybe. Meantime, I’m calling this blog, progressiveadventism, but I’m not completely comfortable with progressive, either. I just want to be open to God’s continuing, progressive leading. <\/p>\n

    An odd schizotheological world that we occupy!<\/p>\n<\/p><\/div>\n

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  17. \n\t\t\t
    \n\t\t\t\t    Cultural Adventist<\/a><\/span><\/p>\n

    \t\t\t\t06.02.07 \/ 4pm<\/span>
    \n\t\t\t<\/cite><\/p>\n

    \n

    I think Luke makes some salient points about the future that lies before Adventism. The Adventist Church has traditionally attracted people with extremely conservative theological positions and although some of us who have grown up in the church have a far different outlook, it is unlikely that we will be willing to fight as doggedly to determine the path the church takes as the hard line traditionalists. Some of us are only Adventist because, like Luke during his “PUC years,” we enjoy our place in the culture. <\/p>\n

    I plan to blog about this interview at some point in the future.<\/p>\n<\/p><\/div>\n

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  18. \n\t\t\t
    \n\t\t\t\tJ David Newman<\/span>
    \n\t\t\t\t06.02.07 \/ 5pm<\/span>
    \n\t\t\t<\/cite><\/p>\n
    \n

    It would be interesting to know what paths Luke’s two older siblings took. Did they leave Adventism too? Can anyone let us know?<\/p>\n<\/p><\/div>\n

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  19. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n

    \t\t\t\tCultural Adventist<\/a><\/span>
    \n\t\t\t\t06.02.07 \/ 7pm<\/span>
    \n\t\t\t<\/cite><\/p>\n

    \n

    Well, http:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Desmond_Ford<\/a> only mentions one of the children taking a “controversial” path.<\/p>\n<\/p><\/div>\n

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  20. \n\t\t\t
    \n\t\t\t\t    Luke Ford<\/a><\/span>
    \n\t\t\t\t06.02.07 \/ 9pm<\/span><\/p>\n

    \t\t\t<\/cite><\/p>\n

    \n

    Regarding conservative Adventists having a better retention rate than liberal Adventists – just look at the stats for fundamentalist Protestant denominations (which flourish) and the mainstream denominations which are dying. How many liberal Adventist kids are going to sacrifice themselves to teach at low wages in Adventist institutions compared to their fundamentalist co-religionists?<\/p>\n

    As for my siblings — my brother is an atheist and my sister is an evangelical Christian (but not an Adventist). Both despise the SDA church. My sister venerates our father. The boys are rebels.<\/p>\n<\/p><\/div>\n

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  21. \n\t\t\t
    \n\t\t\t\t    Luke Ford<\/a><\/span>
    \n\t\t\t\t06.02.07 \/ 9pm<\/span>
    \n\t\t\t<\/cite><\/p>\n
    \n

    When a religion becomes primarily about individual rights, psychological healing, self-fulfillment, and self-expression (the type of rhetoric flowing from the crowd that wants to ordain women, embrace homosexuality, etc) rather than about God’s demands, that religion is in big trouble.<\/p>\n

    As anyone who knows much about me, I am morally lazy and slipshod, but I don’t fool myself that it is my peers whose primary concern is what God wants from them (rather than what they want from their religion) who will lead the way in not just my religion, but in any cause.<\/p>\n<\/p><\/div>\n

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  22. \n\t\t\t
    \n\t\t\t\t    Nic Samojluk<\/a><\/span><\/p>\n

    \t\t\t\t06.02.07 \/ 11pm<\/span>
    \n\t\t\t<\/cite><\/p>\n

    \n

    Luke,<\/p>\n

    Once I started reading about your pilgrimage of faith, I could not stop. What my church did to you and your dad is rather shameful. Can you forgive us for this? I am sure that the Lord is watching over you. Shalom!<\/p>\n<\/p><\/div>\n

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  23. \n\t\t\t
    \n\t\t\t\t    Luke Ford<\/a><\/span>
    \n\t\t\t\t06.02.07 \/ 11pm<\/span>
    \n\t\t\t<\/cite><\/p>\n
    \n

    Aside from some non-rational feelings, I have nothing against the SDA Church for ejecting my dad from the ministry. It was inevitable given his publicly stated views. I was very sad about it but not because the Church did anything wrong.<\/p>\n

    Aperpos of nothing, I wonder if the reason that Adventists and other evangelicals spend so much time proselytizing is that their religion lacks rituals and thus the adherents have nothing better to do than bother people. For instance, in Catholicism and Judaism, you are given tons of rituals and they keep the faithful busy.<\/p>\n<\/p><\/div>\n

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  24. \n\t\t\t
    \n\t\t\t\t    David R. Larson<\/a><\/span><\/p>\n

    \t\t\t\t07.02.07 \/ 6am<\/span>
    \n\t\t\t<\/cite><\/p>\n

    \n

    Three more comments: <\/p>\n

    (1) The more I read from Luke, the more amazed—STUNNED—I am. His self-awareness, perceptivity and generosity of spirit strike me as truly extraordinary. I hope he can forgive me for confessing that I don’t think that he inherited the gift of intellectual moderation; however, this is what makes what he writes so interesting!<\/p>\n

    (2) Luke’s journey from Adventism to [Orthodox?] Judaism may not have been as long as some perhaps suppose. By this I do not mean that he has moved from one greenhouse of religious intensity to another. This is obvious and not worthy of further comment. The issue is a more deeply theological one: Were it not for the CONTINUING vibrancy of Judaism, Christianity would perish. Paul is very clear about this in his letter to the Romans. Judaism is the root and tree and Christianity is the grafted branch such that the second cannot live apart from the first. This is what makes Christianity’s murderous treatment of Judaism so appalling. <\/p>\n

    (3) If he hasn’t done so already. I think Luke should launch a radio talk-show of his own.<\/p>\n<\/p><\/div>\n

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  25. \n\t\t\t
    \n\t\t\t\tJoselito Coo<\/span><\/p>\n

    \t\t\t\t07.02.07 \/ 8am<\/span>
    \n\t\t\t<\/cite><\/p>\n

    \n

    Some students and friends of mine had invited Dr Ford a couple of times years ago. Although we met once on the campus of our school, it was in a faculty home that we gathered to listen and engage him in friendly and stimulating conversation. About the same time, Ralph Larson, who was retired, visited the seminary that he had served as a missionary faculty. Colleagues and former students who knew him wanted to host a reception in his honor but were forbidden by school authorities. Thus, we were forced to celebrate Dr Larson’s visit off campus. My message to Luke: You’re not alone!<\/p>\n<\/p><\/div>\n

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  26. \n\t\t\t
    \n\t\t\t\t    Johnny<\/a><\/span>
    \n\t\t\t\t07.02.07 \/ 9am<\/span>
    \n\t\t\t<\/cite><\/p>\n
    \n

    I didn’t know how to react to Lukes post. It felt like a hot potato- too close to home and far too uncomfortable to want to handle. I felt like ignoring it and not replying. But I keep on coming back and reading. Much like I’d been tracking his websites for some time… a silent observer.<\/p>\n

    I too was troubled by those parts of his story that were close to home. I am also the son of a religion teacher. I have, through time, become more guarded about my personal life but I will say that much of what resonated with Julius resonated with myself also.<\/p>\n

    For what its worth my parents are fairly progressive and my brothers and I still have love for the church and Christ. But I had a terrible time at Loma Linda Academy. I literally had to be dragged out of the car crying every day for the first two months of my first year there. It was really horrible. My parents moved us from S. Lancaster. In my honest opinion one of the best things I ever did as a young person was go to boarding school for one year in high school. Also, you may consider other Adventist schools like the one in Redlands. IMHO Loma Linda Academy is not the most welcoming place for children reared in small working towns with wide open spaces. <\/p>\n

    Back to Luke Ford, I do believe that from his father to his experience as his fathers son, many persons have gone to both individuals internalizing their own experiences of past struggles and slights and imposed those experiences on Lukes story. Now I’m not saying that anyone on this comment section is doing that… I am saying that the fear of doing that is why I haven’t written about Luke on my own blog. His journey is his own and his story is his own. <\/p>\n

    Luke, thanks for sharing. Keep in touch with us in the Adventist world!<\/p>\n<\/p><\/div>\n

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  27. \n\t\t\t
    \n\t\t\t\tBob Rigsby<\/span>
    \n\t\t\t\t07.02.07 \/ 10am<\/span>
    \n\t\t\t<\/cite><\/p>\n
    \n

    Luke:<\/p>\n

    Several comments…<\/p>\n

    1) I have shared this link\/interview with many I know; people (like my daughter and sisters) who have left Adventism and they all found it resonated with them on various levels. AND it confirmed that they “made the right choice”. (OUCH!)<\/p>\n

    2) I know LOTS of Jewish doctors — but most don’t know anything about their “theology” (it embarrassing to ask now — I ask the ones who actually are “involved” with the beliefs) but they “know” their history. So at the Jewish funeral ceremonies they have in their homes (forgot what it’s called) lots of guys are there who don’t even believe in GOD! — but are important parts of the community… Is it this sense of FAMILY mostly that atracts you, or the specific “beliefs”???<\/p>\n

    3) Denis Prager is pretty much a “conservative” isn’t he?? Do you use\/like\/need\/find useful the descriptors “conservative\/liberal”?? For many in Adventism, these descriptors seem to be “fighting words…”<\/p>\n

    4) I read Elliot Abrams book some years ago called Faith or Fear and he makes much the same point that you did about the more vibrant and “successful” Jewish congregations being the most conservative\/traditional ones… Curious what you mean about “keeping busy with rituals”?? I mean we “ruin” a WHOLE DAY and try to keep it Holy… That’s kind of a ritual right?? <\/p>\n

    5) What exactly did you mean by this??
    \n“When a religion becomes primarily about individual rights, psychological healing, self-fulfillment, and self-expression (the type of rhetoric flowing from the crowd that wants to ordain women, embrace homosexuality, etc) rather than about God’s demands, that religion is in big trouble.”<\/p>\n

    You clearly must belief in individual freedom, and the “worth” of an individual and so on… This seems like a bit of a “dis” on the very onew who most sympathize with the pain and tragedy of YOUR life right?? Are NOT those things you mentioned worthwhil in and of themselves??? What have I missed here??<\/p>\n

    6) Thanks again for your sharing…. (And PS — the lost friendships of your youth — have you recaptured any of them???)<\/p>\n<\/p><\/div>\n

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  28. \n\t\t\t
    \n\t\t\t\tElaine Nelson<\/span>
    \n\t\t\t\t07.02.07 \/ 11am<\/span><\/p>\n

    \t\t\t<\/cite><\/p>\n

    \n

    For those who have not been disillusioned about their time in Adventism, if it hasn’t, you have not reached the “dark night of the soul” that St. John of the Cross discovered while imprisoned for his faith.<\/p>\n

    We have ALL been imprisoned in our small world, made even smaller by the exclusivity of the usual Adventist environment: friends, classmates and family all members of the same “club.” Even extending through college and graduate school, we are in a cocoon, not emerging until we begin to work and live on the “outside.” And for some who go straight to denominational employment for their life’s work, where is the opportunity to rub shoulders with the “heathen”?<\/p>\n

    It’s compared to a child, on becoming an adult, who never leaves his comfortable home.<\/p>\n

    Such environment stagnates and postpones or even prevents full maturation.<\/p>\n<\/p><\/div>\n

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  29. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n

    \t\t\t\tBob Rigsby<\/span>
    \n\t\t\t\t07.02.07 \/ 3pm<\/span>
    \n\t\t\t<\/cite><\/p>\n

    \n

    Wow — lots of typos on that last post…. Written in haste at work… sorry…<\/p>\n

    Couple MORE points Luke… and the rest who have commented…<\/p>\n

    I find it incredibly curious that we mourn that Luke is no longer part of the Adventist family. Seems clear he might never have left — were it not for the tragic events involving his Father… But we have NO way of knowing any of the “what if’s”… My personal focus is not so much the tragedy, (what Luke had to experience is inexcusable of course…) but I find myself rather rejoicing that Luke has found a new home. My personal and overwhelming reaction is happiness for Luke that he has followed his path and found his place (which may, yet, change again??) <\/p>\n

    Also, I was incredibly moved by Luke’s descriptions of loneliness. And can I tell you (you already likely know this) how COMMON that is amoung those who have “left”??? I myself have overwhelming feelings and rememberances of being alone. And really few tools to talk about it. THAT is a theme which deserves some serious unwrapping…. <\/p>\n

    And Elaine:
    \nyour words about the “dark night of the soul” are so true…. I experienced mine INSIDE the Adventist church and, probably because of my stubornness, decided to experience that INSIDE this church. Dark, dark times. And lonely too.<\/p>\n<\/p><\/div>\n

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  30. \n

    \t\t\t
    \n\t\t\t\t    Luke Ford<\/a><\/span>
    \n\t\t\t\t07.02.07 \/ 4pm<\/span>
    \n\t\t\t<\/cite><\/p>\n

    \n

    * As John Updike wrote, for Christians belief in God is an either\/or thing. For Jews, familiarity with God often breeds contempt (atheism). Christians theorize about God through theology. Jews tell stories about God. Judaism is primarily about action, not belief, so you will find plenty of Orthodox Jews who seem to have no belief in God but lead Godly lives. What you do is far more important than what you believe, though both are important.<\/p>\n

    Theology is of little importance to Jews, even religious Jews. <\/p>\n

    * Labels, when accurate, are useful and important.<\/p>\n

    * That non-fundamentalists may be most appreciative of my journey and my opinions does not mean I am going to shape my views accordingly. Many of the people I most respect have the least respect for me and vice versa. In my choice of friends, I appreciate those who can empathize with me but that can’t shape my views. It has often been true that the people I pray with, I can’t talk to, and the people I talk to, I can’t pray with.<\/p>\n<\/p><\/div>\n

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  31. \n

    \t\t\t
    \n\t\t\t\t    Luke Ford<\/a><\/span>
    \n\t\t\t\t07.02.07 \/ 4pm<\/span>
    \n\t\t\t<\/cite><\/p>\n

    \n

    Religion must primarily be about what God demands of us. So whenever any other criteria becomes more important than that, we are going off-track.<\/p>\n<\/p><\/div>\n

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  32. \n\t\t\t
    \n\t\t\t\tBob Rigsby<\/span>
    \n\t\t\t\t08.02.07 \/ 8am<\/span>
    \n\t\t\t<\/cite><\/p>\n
    \n

    Luke:
    \nSorry for my persistence, but I’m on the crest of an epiphany here….<\/p>\n

    I once (early on after my own “return” to the church…) had the experience of having a patient die in the Operating room. He was a wonderful and very fragile old Jewish man. And I really got curious to know what Jews believed about death and where we “go” and heaven etc etc. So I started asking my Jewish surgeon friends. And NONE of them seemed to have an “answer” — well not of the sort I was expecting anyway. And yet as an Adventist, the answer to that question was a crucial “part” of our identity!! How could they NOT have an answer, yet still be very much Jewish? And not be worried at all about my questions? That fascinated me…<\/p>\n

    I did have one partner who WAS very in to the whole history AND the “theology” of Judaism though. He used to say to me (with a little smirk) that we Christians had “taken a perfectly good and wonderful religion and… RUINED IT!!” But his “answers” to my questions always tended to include the array of opinions of various rabbi’s… VERY solid community — but FEW solid answers! And I’ve wondered for a long long time how that could be…<\/p>\n

    So the reason this fascinates me so is that IN Adventism right now, there is this dynamic where some say that to BE an Adventist MEANS to have these specific answers to these specific questions. Cliff Goldstein, who invited conversation with you above, has been a strong proponent of this position. Yet that seems diametrically opposite of his own Jewish upbringing right? <\/p>\n

    But I’m also a bit confused when you say that religion is about what God demands of us — because I tend to not be able to associate having a conversation with a being who is “demanding”. Maybe I wrongly associate “demanding” with law-and-order and punishment and motivations of fear and so on?? (in this note — may I ask you what God DOES “demand” of you? — my guess is that it will be framed in terms of treating your neighbor like He would??)<\/p>\n

    Anyway, thanks again Luke for your insights…<\/p>\n<\/p><\/div>\n

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  33. \n\t\t\t
    \n\t\t\t\t    Ron Corson<\/a><\/span><\/p>\n

    \t\t\t\t08.02.07 \/ 11am<\/span>
    \n\t\t\t<\/cite><\/p>\n

    \n

    Julius wrote:
    \n“I shudder to think that my children will one day choose to leave Adventism. I can embrace the possibility intellectually, but emotionally it’s abhorrent to me. Not because I think they’ll lose their salvation or somehow mess up their lives simply by that decision, but because who I am, what I am, and what I desire for them are all so closely and intricately connected to this community that I love to death.”<\/p>\n

    If there is such a thing as Progressive Adventists which is a term some of us have used for years yet saw no unifying movement in actuality, Adventism will not be the same as it has been in the past. I would shudder to think of my children growing up in the Adventist church I grew up in. However many wonderful people I have seen in the SDA church our tradition ruled our religion. (in fact when my teenage daughter tells me some of the things that her youth leader says I still shudder). For me either the church agrees to change of it will no longer have relevance to my family and likely the majority of the first world. <\/p>\n

    As the Who sang; “The music must change”, so the SDA church must change!<\/p>\n<\/p><\/div>\n

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  34. \n\t\t\t
    \n\t\t\t\t    Dennis Tedman<\/a><\/span>
    \n\t\t\t\t09.02.07 \/ 11am<\/span><\/p>\n

    \t\t\t<\/cite><\/p>\n

    \n

    Dr Ford’s daughter Ellenne is a barrister in Brisbane Australia and also a board member of Good News Unlimited.<\/p>\n<\/p><\/div>\n

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  35. \n

    \t\t\t
    \n\t\t\t\t    Tim Mitchell<\/a><\/span>
    \n\t\t\t\t09.02.07 \/ 2pm<\/span>
    \n\t\t\t<\/cite><\/p>\n

    \n

    Bob Rigsby: That’s a wonderful insight about Judaism. Thank you. It adds hope.<\/p>\n

    But now I have a new challenge: Do we need to be like Judaism in order to survive? And do we have to lose our apocalyptic view that this age is really going to end and usher in a new one? Can “Adventism” survive without the hope of the Advent?<\/p>\n

    Keep up your helpful comments.<\/p>\n<\/p><\/div>\n

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  36. \n\t\t\t
    \n\t\t\t\tBob Rigsby<\/span><\/p>\n

    \t\t\t\t09.02.07 \/ 8pm<\/span>
    \n\t\t\t<\/cite><\/p>\n

    \n

    Tim:
    \nI do not mean to be rude, or unkind, or threatening, or anything like that. But to your question if we need to be like Judaism to “survive” I must ask “WHO CARES??” Does the cause of GOD rise and fall with the tides of ADVENTISM??? Lets say (for instance) that the structure and beurocracy of Adventism fades away and disappears…. You surely don’t mean that all is lost do you? Is not the God of the bible still there? Is not His Son — the Christ whom you (and I) love and worship STILL there? Are not the people who cherish the same Advent hope still there?? <\/p>\n

    Who said OUR survival is what matters?? I must say that is rather self centered. It is fine and wonderful to believe that God has a special work for us, and we are a special people, and so on and on. But it is NOT ABOUT US!! We disappear and nothing (really) changes! God is, and we humans strive to seek His face. And He reaches to us. Period. <\/p>\n

    Our birthright as Adventists, AND our curse, is this chosenness; this terrible sense that we have somethign special and that therefore somehow WE are special. And in it all we somehow forget the REST of humanity!! <\/p>\n

    I just wish we Adventists would wake up and realize just how BUSY God is — and has been — in that part of the world where Adventism has not yet reached! Adventism is so far removed from what initially motivated her that our “vision” has grown stale and irrelevant…. I wonder if God has allowed — and encouraged these small bands of believers in order to make it all more real and personal and tangible…. But we take that and forget He means to include the whole world…<\/p>\n<\/p><\/div>\n

    <\/div>\n<\/li>\n
  37. \n\t\t\t
    \n\t\t\t\t    Tim Mitchell<\/a><\/span>
    \n\t\t\t\t09.02.07 \/ 9pm<\/span><\/p>\n

    \t\t\t<\/cite><\/p>\n

    \n

    Bob–<\/p>\n

    Actually my view doesn’t differ from yours much.<\/p>\n

    The reason I put “Adventism” in quotation marks was to signify that I’m thinking of the apocalytpic notion of a new era to come with the return of Christ…Advent-ism. Not the denomination that is called Adventism.<\/p>\n

    It seems like Jesus taught apocalytpicism, no? Perhaps I’m just ruminating that for me, Christianity still has appeal for it’s offer of a life to come.<\/p>\n<\/p><\/div>\n

    <\/div>\n<\/li>\n
  38. \n\t\t\t
    \n\t\t\t\tMorgan Chinnock<\/span><\/p>\n

    \t\t\t\t09.02.07 \/ 10pm<\/span>
    \n\t\t\t<\/cite><\/p>\n

    \n

    Luke, your honesty about your journey touched me and set me thinking.
    \nAs a senior in college at PUC, I am wondering how I will approach religious life away from this academic community. The open-mindedness about God my professors have shown me has given me hope and an excitment that God is not as static as I once thought Him to be. But I see the general population of Adventist churches as being less open to exploring new interpretations about God, and I cringe at the thought of going back into that environment.
    \nIt seems that you argue that the steadiness of ritual is what makes a religion enduring, and that for Adventism, that means keeping the no dancing, no jewelry, etc. rules. But–and this is not just a question for Luke–aren’t there other rituals we have in our community that are more important, like eating together and talking and going for hikes and seeking Truth?<\/p>\n

    I think the problem for me comes when we make the rituals one with our understanding of who God is–when we say that if we dance, we are going against the will of God. We are not going against the will of God; we are going against the will of a segment of a community. I don’ t know yet what the lifestyle choices are that we should agree on, but I think that if Adventism is going to survive, it is going to have to keep seeking truth and God, and we are going to need to let our lives change with new revelations.
    \nAt the same time, I understand that different people within the community can believe that they are getting conflicting messages from God. So, what do we do with that? From my perspective, it is the failure of community that causes many people to leave the church. Can a community built on interpersonal relationships be strong enough to endure both rigidity and changing concepts of God? If we had true community, would the doctrines and lifestyles even matter? Or do we have to agree on certain lifestyle issues to stay in community?<\/p>\n<\/p><\/div>\n

    <\/div>\n<\/li>\n
  39. \n

    \t\t\t
    \n\t\t\t\tCarla Gober<\/span>
    \n\t\t\t\t09.02.07 \/ 10pm<\/span>
    \n\t\t\t<\/cite><\/p>\n

    \n

    Luke, I read your interview and all succeeding comments tonight for the first time. I find myself closing my eyes and breathing slowly as tears threaten. Why am I moved? Perhaps, by your honesty. Perhaps by the honesty of those who have responded to you. We simply do not care about each other enough. While I was away at grad school (last few years) I took the opportunity of totally immersing myself in studies and in visiting other religious groups. I wanted to come back to Adventism with new eyes, clearer vision. The first year back was a difficult one, but I am learning something I never expected to learn. Through leaving and returning and, on the other hand, loving and losing (in other arenas), I am learning that the deepest portions of one’s life is lived in historical connection to others – that others carry my history in ways I did not understand and when there is separation, there is a portion of my life that is not the same and in some ways, does not make sense, and it is painful. Perhaps that is why the emotion. Through your interview I see you (and others, including myself) connecting to those who are, or at least once considered themselves, family – struggling together through difficult issues – and that is moving.<\/p>\n<\/p><\/div>\n

    <\/div>\n<\/li>\n
  40. \n\t\t\t
    \n\t\t\t\tMorgan Chinnock<\/span>
    \n\t\t\t\t09.02.07 \/ 10pm<\/span>
    \n\t\t\t<\/cite><\/p>\n
    \n

    I don’t know much about the current Jewish community, but I recently read Rob Bell’s book, “Velvet Elvis,” in which he explains that the Jews of Jesus’ time were constantly in flux with their interpretations of what God was telling them in the Scriptures. There were rabbis who traveled around and chose disciples, and the most renown rabbis each had a different yoke, or set of rules for living that they interpreted from Scripture. Luke, you say two things: 1) that the people who do what God asks of them lead the way in religion, and 2) that rituals in Judaism and Catholicism keep the faithful busy and so they don’ t need to try to convert people. From my perspective, it seems that what God asks of people often goes against prevailing rituals–like Jesus cleansing the temple of the moneychangers. But then at the same time, how much revolution can a religion take and still hold together? Is holding together the important part or is truth the important part?
    \nBecause, like Julius and Trudy, as I look towards having kids, I want them to have this community to live in, but I also want their relationship with God to be alive…and I want the same for myself.<\/p>\n<\/p><\/div>\n

    <\/div>\n<\/li>\n
  41. \n\t\t\t
    \n\t\t\t\tBob Rigsby<\/span>
    \n\t\t\t\t10.02.07 \/ 6am<\/span><\/p>\n

    \t\t\t<\/cite><\/p>\n

    \n

    Tim:
    \nThanks for seeing my mini rant for what it was… you are gracious…<\/p>\n

    And as I observe “Advent – ism” it seems like maybe we are entering another episode similar to THE GREAT DISAPPOINTMENT; only this time it’s a long and protracted disappointment. Rare are the sermons these days proclaiming the “nearness” of His coming. Like we’re coming to terms with the “fact” that “soon” doesn’t mean soon like we THINK it should mean… <\/p>\n

    But what if… we “Advent – ists” (there are more than just us..) began to live so like Christ that when people saw us coming they DID think in terms of “Christ” coming?? Those “Christ-folks” are here — and boy are they inspiring…. The way they try to represent Him and all. The way they “do” family and community. <\/p>\n

    So it’s sort of putting on the back burner the actual TIME element of the Kingdom as some far off event and bringing it into the here and now. Living doing breathing the KINGDOM of Christ right now. What better way to “wait” and what better way to be “ready”??
    \nEasy to say; Hard to do….<\/p>\n<\/p><\/div>\n

    <\/div>\n<\/li>\n
  42. \n\t\t\t
    \n\t\t\t\t    Juan Carlos<\/a><\/span>
    \n\t\t\t\t10.02.07 \/ 7am<\/span>
    \n\t\t\t<\/cite><\/p>\n
    \n

    Is there any other way to be ready?<\/p>\n

    Maybe we should examine exactly what it means to be “getting ready” for Jesus to come. If we thought it was really imminent, we would live like it, and all those flowery things you mention would fall into place?<\/p>\n

    2 Peter:
    \n” 4And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.”<\/p>\n

    I think people never really stop to consider the events surrounding the flood. (although the problem may be that many people are not convinced of the veracity of the story–but that’s another matter).
    \nNobody had ever seen rain before. Noah preached for forty years, quite a long time. Not even I am 40 years old. They never knew what hit them.<\/p>\n

    For those of you passionate about “Global Warming”, think about the difficulty it is to convince people of things to come, much more getting them to change their ways (the world over<\/b>).<\/p>\n

    Maybe then, you will have a little more sympathy for the “Jesus is coming soon” message.<\/p>\n<\/p><\/div>\n

    <\/div>\n<\/li>\n
  43. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n

    \t\t\t\tElaine Nelson<\/span>
    \n\t\t\t\t10.02.07 \/ 8am<\/span>
    \n\t\t\t<\/cite><\/p>\n

    \n

    Bob and Tim, count me as another one who finds agreement with what you say. The Jews, at least what we know of them through their Scriptures they handed down to us, never believed in an afterlife. It was always promise of progeny and entering the promised land–a motif repeated even today by the descendants of slaves as the most powerful call to God.<\/p>\n

    How were the Jewish people then, and now, able to live and do good works with no hope of a coming kingdom? According to some translations, Jesus said that His kingdom is now, within you. Why should we live any better if we hope for a future bliss built of our own creative thinking? Perhaps if we had only this life, we might view it as our only chance of the immortality that comes to us all through our children or the legacy of our actions. Another reason to live as though each day is our last.<\/p>\n<\/p><\/div>\n

    <\/div>\n<\/li>\n
  44. \n\t\t\t
    \n\t\t\t\tBob Rigsby<\/span>
    \n\t\t\t\t10.02.07 \/ 5pm<\/span>
    \n\t\t\t<\/cite><\/p>\n
    \n

    Well, since this thread DID start with Luke Ford, I confess I have really been perplexed by his willingness to so easily leave the Christ and His story… So yes Elaine, I think you are right — from the Jewish perspective as far as it goes…
    \nI think here it is very important to consider how differently the Jewish people relate to and interact with their God…. I have this fascination for Jewish writings on the holocaust. And it is through these writings that I can understand what Luke means when he says that many Jews are indeed “atheists” and yet very loyal and part of their Jewishness and their community. In credible passion and honesty and bluntness when “talking” to a God who would allow this horror. <\/p>\n

    But there IS a huge paradigm shift with the entracne of Christ; and so while the Jew of that day may NOT have entertained any notion of an afterlife, with the resurrection OF Christ there seems to be a really important progression. And Paul — who insists he is very much Jewish — seems to also insist that this “new” paradigm is nothing without the ressurection…. So the here-and-now are really important, as are the “demands” of God as Luke puts it… But I make NO apologies for buying in to Pauls insistence that we are nothing — if not for the resurrection. And THAT event is associated with the return of CHRIST.<\/p>\n

    But as Tim and I note, that promise of return seems a long way off right now…. So, how to make it real and meaningful NOW. <\/p>\n

    Perhaps what I imagine as the reason why Luke (and all Jews) “reject” Jesus is because of what we Christians have done with Him. And I’m talking about the penal substitution model of understanding the Atonement. I applaud all Jews who reject this notion (and Christians too) because of how bad it makes GOD look. Few have defended and stood by God through history as have the Jews. And they SEE this bad theology for what it is; an utterly appalling portrayal of God…<\/p>\n

    So, Elaine, ONE of the reasons why I treasure you and your mind and experience, is that you call us to the PRESENT and away from the future reward. It’s not, necessarily, about the “reward” (which if it’s real, — great…) but it’s about bringing you God into the HERE and NOW. Why DON’T Christians understand how “present” God is?? Like maybe the Jews do??<\/p>\n<\/p><\/div>\n

    <\/div>\n<\/li>\n
  45. \n\t\t\t
    \n\t\t\t\t    Luke Ford<\/a><\/span>
    \n\t\t\t\t11.02.07 \/ 8am<\/span><\/p>\n

    \t\t\t<\/cite><\/p>\n

    \n

    According to the Encyclopedia Judaica entry on Afterlife, Judaism has always affirmed belief in an afterlife.
    \nJudaism does not stress it like Christianity does because Judaism wants us to focus on the present.
    \nAs for oft-stated comment that Jews reject Jesus, Jews do not reject Jesus any more than Christians reject Mohammed or Buddha. Jesus\/Christianity no more offers something to the typical Jew than does Islam\/Mohammed offer something to the typical Christian.<\/p>\n<\/p><\/div>\n

    <\/div>\n<\/li>\n
  46. \n\t\t\t
    \n\t\t\t\t    Luke Ford<\/a><\/span>
    \n\t\t\t\t11.02.07 \/ 9am<\/span>
    \n\t\t\t<\/cite><\/p>\n
    \n

    There was a comment above that if Adventists just love each other, won’t that be enough to perpetuate the community? No. If the individual Adventist does not believe that God specially chose this SDA church, then that Adventist should start searching for the group he believes is chosen.<\/p>\n<\/p><\/div>\n

    <\/div>\n<\/li>\n
  47. \n\t\t\t
    \n\t\t\t\tChris Blake<\/span>
    \n\t\t\t\t11.02.07 \/ 9pm<\/span><\/p>\n

    \t\t\t<\/cite><\/p>\n

    \n

    I too appreciated the candor of Luke’s comments. In addition, after reading and waiting and wading through 46 comments, though I’m loath to do so, I have to respond to the charge of “other-worldliness” in Christianity\/Adventism. <\/p>\n

    If, indeed, Christianity were as Luke portrays it, I also would have nothing to do with it. Instead (at age 24) I found that Christianity (and Adventism) was more “this world ” than anything else I had experienced. Through Christ I found that the kingdom of heaven is here, that eternal life begins now, that I can be liberated from chronic guilt and loneliness and fear and sloth and lust and egoism and deception, that I can be freed from the unending cycle of retribution and hatred that consumes the Middle East (and Washington D.C. as well), that I experience grace in manifold ways through my Messiah. In our Sabbath school we form a redemptive, healing community of prayer and depth, of helping battered women and misfits and alienated students, of open questioning and active belief. Truly, we believe what we do more than we do what we believe. That’s why we live with defiant optimism.<\/p>\n

    Other-worldly? Not dealing with reality? My Christian experience is just the opposite. I’m saddened to hear of horror stories, and I’ve come in contact with many horrible people through “the church” and felt sick and depressed because of them, but the truth is that most people reject the church’s sick, twisted cousin, not the Christ-saturated forgiving, accepting, sharing community. We should reject that cousin while striving in hope for radical love.<\/p>\n

    In sum, serving Jesus is the ABSOLUTE BEST WAY I know of dealing realistically and redemptively with the here and now.<\/p>\n

    Sorry if I’m coming off as evangelistic, but these are my candid thoughts.<\/p>\n<\/p><\/div>\n

    <\/div>\n<\/li>\n
  48. \n\t\t\t
    \n\t\t\t\tElaine Nelson<\/span>
    \n\t\t\t\t12.02.07 \/ 12pm<\/span>
    \n\t\t\t<\/cite><\/p>\n
    \n

    Chris, what a wonderful description of what Adventism has given you. Would that all Adventists had captured that sentiment. You should know, however, that for the majority, in my many years in Adventism (tripling yours), that was NOT the Adventism of years ago, and while it is gradually percolating down to the membership, there is a long way to go, and in your writings you have attempted to show the way. Keep it up.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

    Loma Linda University religion professor Julius Nam asks me about my journey from Adventism to Judaism. As the interview is no longer online, I am republishing it here with the comments: Born in 1966 as the third child of Seventh-day … Continue reading →<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"om_disable_all_campaigns":false,"_monsterinsights_skip_tracking":false,"_monsterinsights_sitenote_active":false,"_monsterinsights_sitenote_note":"","_monsterinsights_sitenote_category":0,"footnotes":""},"categories":[30,21],"tags":[2199,1976,25029,25030,25028,22661],"class_list":["post-100","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-adventist","category-personal","tag-conversion-to-judaism","tag-desmond-ford","tag-kurri-kurri","tag-sierra-college-in-rocklin","tag-sierra-college-in-rocklin-california","tag-university-religion-professor"],"aioseo_notices":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/lukeford.net\/blog\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/100","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/lukeford.net\/blog\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/lukeford.net\/blog\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/lukeford.net\/blog\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/lukeford.net\/blog\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=100"}],"version-history":[{"count":2,"href":"https:\/\/lukeford.net\/blog\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/100\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":28420,"href":"https:\/\/lukeford.net\/blog\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/100\/revisions\/28420"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/lukeford.net\/blog\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=100"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/lukeford.net\/blog\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcategories&post=100"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/lukeford.net\/blog\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Ftags&post=100"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}