Transcript Of The Leib Tropper – Shannon Orand Tapes

The conversation is apparently between R. Leib Tropper and Shannon Orand of Houston, Texas.

Yeshiva University rabbi Yosef Blau comments on the Dob Bear blog: “There is a campaign to besmirch Shannon Orland. My information from a most reliable source is that she is sincere and was working for Rabbi Tropper though her geirus had not been completed. She was misled about the public distribution of the tapes.
Unfortunately, the pattern of blaming women who have been manipulated by a rabbi, who was an authority figure, is being repeated in this case.
Attacking her won’t save Tropper but it will have a devastating effect on her life.”

From Shannon Orand’s MySpace page:

The tapes:

http://www.2shared.com/file/10008550/23589caa/Leibs_contract_2.html

http://www.2shared.com/file/10008637/e92010d6/Leibs_contract.html

http://www.2shared.com/file/10008381/e57caec3/rebbetzinAdmission.html

I got this email Dec. 16: “I am the victim in the R’ Tropper scandal. I do not know how the audios came into the public, but I beg you to remove the ones containing personal information that identifies me. I can provide edited versions, but please respect me and my children. We are beginning to be ostracized from our community, and I have been banned from entering the day school where my children attend. The trauma endured through this ordeal is indescribable. Please help me from becoming more of a victim.”

I replied: “I fear it is too late. This information is so public it can never be retracted.”

From Modern Orthoprax:

[M = Man. W=Woman. ?? = garbled speech. [] means something is missing]

(Phone Rings)

M: Hello 1 second ?? whats the name ?? edwards are coming, both of them are coming ?? reuben sent a hundred eighty dolar check ?? Reuben, Dr Zvi Rreuben.from Far Rockaway ?? last name is alpert ?? Rav Feinstein rsvped, Stacy Goldberg rsvped, she’s coming, her husband not ??Tom and Dafna both coming.. I want to tell you this …come back early morning that day.come to the wdding ?? I asked malcolm honlein to come ?? he likes to sit with Tom ?? i’ll call you back OK..

M: So anyway, so yeah I’m saying its best for all practical purposes if I know where finally you stand darling, and you know, whatever if it, if its no, yeah, if we have some relationship with you on some level, we’ll be friends and ??? I just got to somehow you can tell I can tell…

W: I keep telling you, I keep telling you and you keep umm avoiding, you’re not listening

M: Maybe I’m ot hearing you well

W: You’re not, I want everything to be the same, the same as it used to be

M: You want everything to be the same, you want it to be

W: Yes, I just, I just want to do..

M: Oh, I thought you said I don’t wanna do.. OK Fine! I understand that, I’m fine

W: Could I er Could I, I can’t, I can’t sleep with these men, but err

M: I asked you, I asked you a question

W: I know!

M: I didn’t tell you to…

W: You asked if I could, If I could just call them on the phone and do like phone things and talk about.. that I said no to, I didn’t say no, I said it’s hard, it’s not something I’m used to, you know if I have feelings for the person, if, then I can do, you know, sex things on the phone , but…

M: Right. Would you be willing, would you be willing to get …

W: It’s very difficult with somebody you don’t really …

M: Okay, fine, OK, I heard you loud and clear

W: The other men, I keep telling you, it was …

M: Whatever it is, azoy, I don’t want to get into a philosophical argument, it is what it is, you owe me ???

W: That’s it , that’s what I’m uncomfortable with and I keep telling you that everything else I want to remain the same

M: I didn’t hear you well, I’m sorry, I thought you said you don’t want to be like it was before, I thought you said “don’t”

W: No, I do, I do

M: OK darling fine, OK fine

W: ?something? Liba is fine, I love that! It’s fine

M: OK, fine darling, it’s OK. I’m just saying, the only other thing I asked you for, to try with ??? if that would be possible, I think that would be possible ???.. how often that will happen, will it ever happen

W: Well it certainly is not going to happen around the wedding, cos there’s too much going on

M: Well yeah, right exactly I’m too busy, I’m too busy, not going to happen this time for sure, there’s no question, in my bed..It can’t happen, I mean it finishes Tuesday, then Wednesday, and then Thursday, not going to happen, and you’re leaving early morning so..not going to happen on this trip..but in general..Theoretically speaking, what do you think? Do you think you could say well ‘It’s one thing, I’ll try this one thing’. I’m not going to go ask you to do anything else you know, with them, you know, if you don’t want to do that

W: Right, well yeah, that’s

M: OK. OK fine! end of story. You don’t even…That’s very nice of you. I’m appreciative, thank you very much

W: I want everything else with us to remain the same

M: Ok, great! Darling, you do want to feel the same feelings, you do want to feel loved and a half and you do want me to be able to ?love? you also right

W: Yes, I want it to be the same

M: OK darling, greeeat! Greeat! I’m so happy. I’m ready right now. I’m ready to shkweeze you, shkweeze your [cut] shkweeze your [?] so high [garbled] shkweeze you (laughs)

W: You are crazy..

M: Am I crazy?! I am ! Crazy about who? About who?

W: About..that..

M: Tell me! Crazy about who?

W: That fat ugly blond chick in Houston

M: That’s right! The short fat lady with the mustache. The short fat lady with the mustache. Exactly.

W: (softly) Yes

M: OK darling, you’re really great. Great great great great great. So, OK, so, I will be actually.. so when I spoke to him before, he wasn’t sure, he wasn’t even sure he brought the money with him..he left a night early, on Saturday night, he caught an early flight, motzei shabbos, so he doesn’t know if he brought the money with him, but he thinks he’s pretty sure he has it, it’s very important, and he’s going to call you soon

W: How does somebody travel with thirty seven hundred dollars and they’re not sure they have it?

M: (pause) No, he wasn’t sure if he took it from his house, his mother’s house, he was here in Monsey for shabbos, he took it out of his pocket before shabbos , you understand?

W: Right..

M: He put in the drawer, in the drawer, he wasn’t sure if he put it back in his pocket going on the plane, he ran out motzei shabbos and..

W: Maybe, maybe money is not that important to so many people but if I had thirty seven hundred dollars, anywhere, in a drawer, in a pocket..

M: No, but, in his parents house..

W: …in a suitcase…I’d know exactly where it is

M: No, he knows where it is! He knows it’s either with him or he left it in the..in his drawer, in his room..don’t make an issue, it’s not a big deal, I’ll get it to you tomorrow, I could find a thousand people going to Texas and give it to you..but he’s pretty sure he has it, he’s pretty sure he has it.

W: OK.

M: OK darling, so I’m going to, here’s what I want to do darling. I’m going to send you an email, outlining the things you are going to do, only the things you are going to do, because everything else you don’t do is not part of the agreement, not part of the agreement, I can’t expect you to, it’s not part of the agreement, I’m going to put it in. As you invest in it darling, I promise you, you’ll get back a lot of benefit?

W: (annoyed) Why are you emailing me?

M: I won’t email you, I’m just telling it to you darling, OK? I won’t email it to you, I’m telling it to you

W: Why..

M: OK, I won’t email it to you, I’m telling it to you

W: What, are you documenting stuff? What is going on?

M: Are you crazy? I would get rid of it. I don’t want people.. I remember what I said to you

W: Yeah but you just told me everything. Why would you want to document that kind of agreement on an email?

M: No I mean, you’re right, I shouldn’t do that, I just want, I want to have some kind of a understanding that we can refer to, that you know, that it shouldn’t be a problem later on, you know ‘I didn’t say that, I didn’t say that’, I want something that.., you mark it down yourself

W: No, I thought you said I should delete every email you send me and I send you you delete it

M: I do! I do! On the spot! I don’t have any emails darling. Listen to me closely, listen to me closely

W: So what are you going to refer to in the future?

M: (pause) I said maybe you should write it down on your own piece of paper in your house and put it in your drawer have what we made up on the phone, that’s all I’m saying to you, maybe you could do that, you’re right, for a moment I said email, but that’s stupid, it’s not good to have anything that we don’t need to have, but you should have in your drawer, I should have in my drawer, a piece of paper that I wrote down, I’m going to write down what I’m telling you on a piece of paper, I’m going to keep it in my drawer, I’ll read you what I wrote, so you can agree to it, that’s all, I’m not going to go email it to you, I’m not going to document it not on email, I’m not going to document it all. I’ll write a piece of paper and put it in my drawer. My handwriting, my name, not your name, just me and myself

W: OK. I’m not signing anything (laughs)

M: I’m not asking you to sign anything

W: No, you make it sound like so, so like

M: You’re so suspicious of every stupid thing in the world..you don’t trust..you don’t trust God!

W: I have a very hard time ..

M: I know! You have a very hard time trusting anybody

W: I do trust God..but that’s not you!

M: OK darling.. trust which is not tested is not trust. You do trust God, you don’t trust God, you don’t trust anybody in the whole world. Untested trust is not trust. And if you have a friend who you can’t trust, like me, I would be more, I should be more worried about myself, I’m not going to do this, I’m not going to do that, because I don’t trust her, maybe she’ll tell somebody, maybe she’ll say something to somebody, she has told people things, people told me you told them things, and I know you do tell people things, and I don’t know what you’re going to share with this guy, that guy, jack, err Jill, Michael, I don’t know what the hell you’re going to share with who, who knows what you’re going to share.with every Rabbi/Guy? .in Houston Texas, I have no idea. So I should be suspicious, I should say I don’t trust her, I don’t trust her at all, but I’m not! I’m not that nature, and neither is my wife, unfortunately we’re not, we’re very much accepting of people, ? doesn’t know what it means to lie, so she never suspects anyone of lying to her, that’s why she gets so messed up with things in her life. She gets messed up, she gets in trouble. Sexually, or physically..anything..she trusts people. It’s unfortunate, because she’s not as lie? In herself. Tom doesn’t know how to lie, so he trusts Guma, but she can’t believe people lie – “Nobody would lie, who would lie”. So I’m stuck with that kind of attitude but..it has to be mutual, you don’t trust me I don’t trust you, you trust me I do trust you, but if you can’t trust me, then you have an issue, you should go the therapist..

W: No, I trust you..

M: You have trust issues darling

W: .. but gosh, documenting things on email just seems like insane

M: So I said to you, I made a mistake! Do I have to tell you a thousand times?

W: But it goes totally, it goes totally against your whole “delete every email as it comes in”

M: Exactly! That’s why I was just, it was a stupid thing for me to say, so, you know calculators have a ‘cancel’ button.. I said that.. press ‘Cancel’, it’s over, it’s done, I press ‘Cancel, I would never do it, stupidest thing for me to think of, because even though it’s an important document for me to have, to write it on an email is the worst thing because it could be hacked, it could be taken it could be used. Terrible! It’s the worst thing in the world. So, I’m not doing that. Every email I get from you I delete immediately! Not just 5 minutes later, immediately it’s deleted, it’s gone it’s done with. So now, the only thing is I will make a document in my house, you don’t have to sign it because you don’t know, all of a sudden you decide you can’t do it anymore, if you can’t do it you can’t do it, I understand , fine, if it happens, whenever it happens, but I just want to make sure that you understand that we have this arrangement, even how tentative it may be, it may be for a month, two months five months six months, maybe 10 months, maybe five years. But I’m just going to document you and I spoke on this day, this is what the result was , I’ll stick it somewhere in my drawer, and that’s it. I’m not going to give it to anybody, nobody’s going to see it, it won’t be hacked, it won’t be deleted, it won’t be publicized in Newsweek magazine. I’d be embarrassed to publicize it.

W: No, so it will just be there for Pesach to find

M: Excuse me, my son Pesach?

W: Yeah, or the housekeeper, or the aide, or

M: No no, (laughs) cutipie, cutipie, I have a private little chest, I lock my passport in it, I lock the most important documents of my life in there, like my.. you know ..[] do those things

W: OK

M: It’s not even a question. It’s not going to say your name. I’m going to put ‘R’, you know ‘R’ which is Rochel

W: OK

M: Anyway, that’s the bottom line, it’s not a big deal. I will do that and I appreciate everything very very much. I’m going to go with you tonight, I will go with you tonight darling, and im yirtzeh hashem, [?] just called me, he hung up on me, I’m going to call him back. I didn’t tell, I spoke to [?] yesterday, he wants to talk to you about it, he’s coming, he’s going [] call you today at two o’clock, you know area code 832

W: Yeah, so call him back

M: I’ll call you back

W: OK, bye.

PART TWO