Vox Day vs Greg Johnson LIVE DEBATE: Are Nazis Alt Right?

Vox: “Anyone who is more concerned with their symbols and ideology rather than the survival of the white race, the European nations and Western Civilization, is not an asset.”

“National Socialism is a horrifically rhetorical weak point who can be reasonably tarred with the brush.”

“The Nazis were not white nationalists. They were teutonic supremacists. They killed more white people than anybody in history except possibly the Bolsheviks. They considered the Swiss to be a mongrel race. They considered the Americans to be a decayed race… The Poles were a biologically inferior race. The Czechs were half-mongoloid. All the Eastern Europeans were asiatic untermenchen and they were subject to the general plan aimed at the expulsion and extermination of the slavic peoples.”

“National Socialism is pro-Islam… It’s not an accident that the Baathist parties were national socialists.”

Greg Johnson: “I don’t know any National Socialists today who want to follow all the policies of Hitler. National Socialists today have discarded the chauvinistic and imperialistic attitudes that [WWII] Germans had towards other whites… The trajectory of national socialism since WWII has been towards pan-European unity rather than narrow forms of German chauvinism. There are people who pop up with this divisive Nordicism and anti-slavism. I think these people are agents of the enemy.”

“The National Socialists [in Germany] were socialists in a narrow sense [social democratic aka like the things rubber-stamped by Republicans today]. Most private property was left in private hands. During WWII while every Russian was a slave in the war economy, the Germans didn’t start a total war economy until after Stalingrad. They were socialists in the sense that they held that the common good should prevail when it clashed with private interests.”

“These are the four things that important from the Old Right, which includes national socialism, and should carry over to the New Right aka the Alt Right aka white nationalism.

“1. Nationalism over globalism.

“2. The common good over individual liberty.

“3. The centrality of biology to politics. The health of the body politic had everything to do with long-term demographic trends.

“4. Whiteness is a necessary condition of European identity. It’s not just cultural, it’s also racial.

“5. Jews are a distinct people who therefore belong in their own land and not scattered among European peoples.”

“There are other things in Hitler’s 25-point program that sound like good centrist policies in America today.”

“I reject the chauvinism, the imperialism, their whole model of party politics, the totalitarian party model, paramilitary armed parties, and we need to get beyond that.”

“The people who larp (live action role play) as Nazis today are helping the establishment… They are objectively helping the enemy. National socialism is not a cure for rootlessness. It’s a symptom of it. It is a form of inauthenticity. Every western white society has had healthy attitudes about race, diversity and immigration not so far in the past and the goal of white advocacy is to connect with their own authentic national traditions of pro-white policies and the symbols that resonate with the normal people and to lead them.”

“National socialism today is a perverse self-marginalizing self-defeating tendency. It’s fake.”

“The tendency within the Alt Right since the election of Donald Trump has been purity spiraling up their own ass. The people dragging it in that direction are the national socialists. They are the vanguard. They are the loudest and most intense. They’re dragging the Alt Right in the direction of national socialism…and global extermination of non-whites and unhinged misogyny (white sharia) and a new version of the pathological skinhead culture of the 1980s and 1990s — heavy drinking, heavy drugging, brawling… That’s the direction since Heilgate…since Andrew Anglin decided last fall that they needed to assert control of the Alt Right brand. We can’t have a bunch of different people calling themselves Alt Right and having a civil discussion of things like identity politics and alternatives to the Republican mainstream…

Heilgate was Richard Spencer capitulating to the TRS (The Right Stuff) Daily Stormer wing of the movement that wanted to identify the Alt Right with national socialism inducing the split with the Alt Lite… That hardened what was once a porous frontier where people were coming and going and ideas were cross-pollinating and the Overton Window was moving towards white identity politics. That was a bad outcome.

“Then [Richard] Spencer launched AltRight.com. He finally had control of his brand (Alternative Right), which he so foolishly abandoned years for the Radix brand, but that has been turned into a gutter tabloid freakshow and embarrassment (AltRight.com). The brand Alt Right has been Cadillaced by Nazis and drunken douchebags. This is a catastrophe because there has never been a moment in my lifetime when more people have been more receptive to white identity politics. And what is the vanguard of the movement doing? They are busy making themselves as untouchable as possible.”

“I’m reeling under this huge purge that is going on like so many other people on the Right. I feel distracted today. I keep getting bad news piped into me as I listen to you, Vox. What the Left is doing is using the moral panic created by Charlottesville to purge us from many of our platforms. It’s really bad. It’s threatening the survival of a lot of organizations, a lot of platforms, a lot of companies including my own. Has anyone seen the left-wing site that has the audio from the planning sessions from United the Right? That is clown-world level of behavior.”

“Many people were injured. Huge amounts of money had to be spent by people coming in and huge amounts of money are being spent on medical bills. I hope in the future they do smaller, disciplined guerrilla operations. These are low-cost, low-risk high reward asymetrical forms of warfare.”

“If you go up against the Establishment where it is strongest, you are going to be humbled. Our greatest strength is metapolitics, not street battles.”

“The horrible thing about the blowback from Charlottesville is that it is not only affecting the people who did that, it is affecting people like me who didn’t do it but I’m still swept up in this and it is affecting my ability to reach people and to do my work and that pisses me off. There will always be people in this movement who f*** things up because they’re stupid. The sensible people have to clean up the vomit from the night before.”

Comments at Vox Day:

* “National Socialists” could also be broken up into the knowingly nonserious LARPers, the genuinely ignorant, and the true believers. I suspect that there are very few true believers with most falling into the genuinely ignorant category.

* I don’t think there are any actual National Socialists. The LARPers who aren’t paid provocateurs, are men have been demonized and marginalized to a point where they embraced the label that had been put on them. It is Agree and Amplify on a political level. It is the blowback from the left calling everyone “literally hitler”. Anyone can have a weak or low time.

* If you ever meet a Nazi or KKK or White Supremacist who genuinely believes and understands the history and symbolism, then you have found yourself a government informer who is trying to drum up business for himself; he gets paid for every citizen he can lure into jail.

The Nazi shouting the loudest and goose-stepping the highest? FBI agent.

* National Socialism is the logical extension of Nationalism.

If some aspect of capitalism isn’t working out for your nation, you would not sit idly by and let it wreck you, you would regulate or control it as needed, if doing so would benefit your nation.

Sometimes regulations can’t help, but in many situations they can, for example of a tribe of aliens had secured control of the internet infrastructure and were using it to shut down communications, you might regulate that infrastructure as a public utility or even seize strategic aspects of it.

Or you might decide that food or armaments production would ought not to be sent overseas, even though your nation may not technically have a comparative advantage in it.

In most cases the question of how to govern is an empirical fact based question, that will lean towards freedom and small government, low welfare.

But those who do not reserve the MORAL RIGHT to govern and intervene as needed are simply not doing what they can to look after the interests of their nation.

Get away from the autistic libertarian conception of socialism vs capitalism and recognize that most nations today are mixed economies that combine aspects of public and private ownership, aspects of free enterprise and regulation, etc. and this is normal and works fine. NS Germany was not conceptually different.

You better believe I reserve the right to regulate the fuck out of google, facebook, etc and it may even be better to put some aspects of the core internet infrastructure under public, rather than private control.

* Neo-Nazism and the KKK have long been an FBI playground. There is a joke about Klan meetings being an informal get-together of FBI informants. I remember one incident from before the rise of the alt-right, where a Nazi rally managed to attract all of about 12 marchers. There were more cops and protesters than Nazis. And the kicker is that the whole thing was organized by a federal agent.

Given that history, it is the height of stupidity to embrace self-professed national socialists as part the alt-right. You only heighten the risk of subversion by government provocateurs.

* Greg’s underlying point was that what mattered most, what ought to orient debate, was the survival of the race, and that in that regard there were ideological elements of NS worth preserving. “Whether Nazis are Alt-Right” doesn’t make much sense since the Alt-Right is still in process, and not a set program to which conformity can be assessed. (Unless you already accept Vox’s prescriptions as definitive.) The question was really whether NS *ought* to be considered part of the movement.

* I live in South Africa, so in terms of what the best practical approach of gaining political power for white people is, is obviously pointless. I don’t think embracing National Socialism will be able to save the whites anywhere in the world, but I cannot see any other ideology saving it now either. The overwhelming third world population numbers mixed with the relentless left wing propaganda from the big corporations makes the end of whites everywhere in the world almost inevitable.

Somebody here raised the issue of who was “larping”, being completely ignorant or being true believer in National Socialism, I consider myself a true believer. A true believer in the sense that had the Third Reich triumphed (the triumph would have to include the dismantling of the USA, not just the USSR), then the white race would be able to survive, and whites would certainly still be ruling South Africa, and there would be no mayor in London who was from Pakistan. I can understand that many of the people from America here don’t want to hear defeatist talk, but I have a feeling that eventually all whites will end up like me, thinking that the last chance to save us was really in WW2.

* Hitler’s government may not have interfered in the economy as much as it technically could have, but that doesn’t matter. What matters is that the state resereved to itself the prerogative to interfere in the lives of individuals to an unlimited degree.

It’s not that the Nazi government did or didn’t exercise power, it’s that it COULD HAVE if it had so desired. By contrast, due to constitutional constraints, the government of the USA can not breach the rights of individuals, at least in theory.

The government of the USA recognizes limits upon itself. Socialist governments, including Nazi Germany’s, do not. That is what distinguishes collectivism.

* The way in which the privatized internet infrastructure can now be used to completely de-platform the Alt-Right should be a hint that it is necessary to moralize a willingness to govern and intervene in private economic activity on behalf of the nation. The same might apply to industries of strategic military value.

* To be fair, there is value in that [Nazi insignia]. It breaks people of the paralyzing fear of being labeled racist, antisemitic, etc

* Not if you do it in the middle of a large rally of men carrying torches. Context matters. What was the point of this rally? It was to peacefully object to removal of a statue, and more broadly the destruction of our culture. The purpose wasn’t to shock people out of their PC-driven fears. Do that somewhere else.

A big public rally needs to appeal to the normal people who look at it. If possible, it should look like a church picnic. The fact that violent domestic terrorists may attack at any time puts some limits on how far you can go with that, but you can at least not shoot yourself in the foot by waving flags that distract from what you’re trying to accomplish.

About Luke Ford

I've written five books (see Amazon.com). My work has been followed by the New York Times, the Los Angeles Times, and 60 Minutes. I teach Alexander Technique in Beverly Hills (Alexander90210.com).
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