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Prager moved on from the Clinton sex scandal to another topic he has talked about frequently - the woman in Texas on death row. Prager is writing a column for the Wall Street Journal on the issue. He feels the weight on his shoulders, that his column might influence those who will decide her fate. Karla Faye Tucker, at age 24, murdered a man and a woman with a pick ax in 1983. At the time she was a rock music groupie, drug addict and prostitute. Now she has found Jesus. Pat Robertson, founder of the Christian Coalition, wants Tucker spared. He wants the message of what the Lord has done for her, to get out. Prager says he does not understand the clamoring on her behalf from people like Robertson who normally support the death penalty. "I am happy that she found God and religion, so she can die with peace. But what does that have to do with capital punishment? If she had stayed an atheist, we should execute her? "That she is a woman? So if I am murdered by a woman, the murderer won't be properly punished? She has lived 15 years more than the people whose lives she snuffed out. She will die in a much nicer fashion than her victims. "She did well with those years… She was allowed to marry… Why does that argue for her being spared? "I believe that this woman has changed. But that is irrelevant. We could never execute anyone then, because people always have the ability to change. "There is something wrong with allowing a person who has deliberately taken a life, to keep hers." Carol: "This woman was so high on drugs, that she should be put in prison for life. Though if it [the murders] had happened to my loved ones… I couldn't think straight…" DP: "So she didn't know what she was doing? "Why should she be kept in prison for life, if she has changed? "The number of people under the influence of alcohol and drugs who've kept their conscience… Those who have a conscience, keep their conscience when under the influence…" Next caller: "If we set a precedent, that getting high on drugs exempts one from capital punishment, then more people who murder will get high first. And if we allow her to get off because she has found Jesus, then more murderers will find Jesus, to escape capitol punishment."
The next caller, Charlayne from Venice, opposed all forms of killing. "We need to come into the family of [civilized] nations…[by dropping capitol punishment]…" Prager asked her a series of questions that she refused to answer straight, but kept switching and adjusting her answers to avoid his hard questions. "The line she used that most disturbs me is that there is a moral equivalence between killing a murderer, and murdering an innocent. We have two words for the taking of human life: kill and murder. Murder is immoral killing, killing an innocent. Just as there are two forms of kidnapping: Moral kidnapping [jail] and immoral kidnapping." A caller said that Dennis Prager was the best thing that former KABC general manager George Green ever did. The caller said he hoped that KABC would return to more rational discussion instead of the loopy comedy in the evenings [Ed Tyll, Stephanie Miller]… "There are instances in the Bible where people have shown regret and Godly sorrow…and been forgiven…" DP: "Why not let her out of prison?" Next Caller: "A year ago I was on the fence about capital punishment. Then I read your book THINK A SECOND TIME, and came to support it… But why did you support the non-execution of Ted Kazynski, because his brother asked?" DP: "We should not renege on the deal that the government cut with Ted's brother… The brother did a great thing…though any one who did not do it, would be a moral idiot. If I found out that my brother was the Unabomber, I would turn him in… but would be racked with guilt for the rest of my life if he was executed… But this was all for the sake of Ted's brother… Those appealing for Tucker, want it for her sake."
The one argument for not executing Tucker that Prager found reasonable, that she was particularly cooperative, and helped authorities convict the other killer. Prager questioned why so few women murderers are executed? Why isn't the death penalty protested for being unfair to men? "Remember the Son of Man mass murderer in NYC? He also claimed to have found God. But he said, 'Therefore, I deserve to die.' This guy I believe has found God."
Next caller: "I love talk radio…because I just hear about the issues, without seeing the pictures of her. When I first heard about this woman, I did not know anything about her, if she was black or white… Then I saw her on TV, and how cute she was…" DP: "How come 60 Minutes did not do an interview with the victims [of Tucker]?"
Letter to editor of Cleveland Plains Dealer: Arguments for staying execution seem flawed Monday, January 19, 1998 A murderess named Karla Faye Tucker is scheduled to die in about two weeks. If she does, she will be the first woman executed in Texas since 1863. Tucker has been sitting on death row for 14 years. Now the pressure is on to have her stand up and give her seat to some man. There are plenty of men waiting in line, too. Texas has the most productive execution chamber in America. The push to let Tucker live has nothing to do with any doubt about her guilt. Nor is it related to the circumstances of the crime she committed. She admits driving a pickax into the chest of her ex-boyfriend and his paramour while they slept. She was high on drugs and booze at the time. But her awareness was not completely short-circuited. She bragged at her trial that she had experienced an orgasm with every swing of the pick. So why a Karla Faye Tucker Fan Club - which includes her victims' relatives, the cop who arrested her and the Rev. Pat Robertson? What makes her special? Well, Tucker says she has found Jesus. During her wait for execution she has, it appears, experienced a profound born-again experience. She is no longer the person she was. Time magazine calls her "the nicest woman on death row." She has repented of the sin of double homicide. And those who want her sentence commuted feel it is their Christian duty to forgive her her stimulating trespass into her former boyfriend's chest cavity. I'm hardly qualified to debate the theology of forgiveness with the likes of the Rev. Robertson. But there are a couple of loose ends in this reasoning that it's hard not to pick at. Suppose, instead of finding Jesus, Tucker had found Buddha or Allah? Would such a discovery have elicited similar support from spiritual lobbyists? Or is Christianity the only grounds for a pass from the Texas hangman - or, to be more accurate, the Texas lethal injectman? To put it another way, if Pat Robertson feels it is his Christian duty to forgive Tucker for what she did, why should that cut any ice with the Texas penal system? And if God has forgiven the repentant Ms. Tucker, presumably he'll tell her when he meets her two weeks from now in a place other than Texas. A while back, writer Dennis Prager had a go at this whole subject of Christian forgiveness in a piece he wrote for the Wall Street Journal. He was inspired by a sermon, preached before President Clinton, in which a minister told his congregation to forgive Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh. "In what passes for Christianity these days," Prager wrote, "is the declaration that it is the Christian's duty to forgive just as Jesus forgave those who crucified him. . . . But Jesus never asked God to forgive those who had crucified thousands of other innocent people, presumably because he recognized that no one has the moral right to forgive evil done to others. "You or I have no right, religiously or morally, to forgive Timothy McVeigh . . . only those he sinned against have that right, and they are dead and therefore cannot forgive him." Since Pat Robertson was not a victim of Tucker's, what exactly is he forgiving her for? Isn't it a little presumptuous for any person or any group of people to say, "Karla Faye Tucker, you drove an ax through your boyfriend's chest, but we have decided to forgive you for it." God may have such wide forgiveness credentials and so may the victim of an outrage. So may the state when confronted with special mitigating circumstances. After that, nominations would seem to be closed. The limitations on the human power of forgiveness, Prager points out, are defined biblically in Luke 17:3-4: "And if your brother sins against you, rebuke him. And if he repents, forgive him. And if seven times of the day he sins against you and seven times of the day turns to you saying "I repent,' you shall forgive him." This instruction is for a victim. It is not for kibbitzers - not for a victim's brother-in-law or an interested homicide cop or a preacher on television. Tucker's hacked-up ex-boyfriend might legitimately forgive her if he were around. But who knows? Certainly not the state of Texas, which is forced to operate on the assumption that he might not have read Luke 17. So the execution date stands. It is tempting to wonder how much controversy would surround it if Karla Tucker were Karl Tucker, the nicest man on death row. I don't know if Tucker's late boyfriend was nice or not. If he wasn't, nobody gave him 14 years to change. All he got was a pickax, without even so much as a "beg your pardon." Messages for Dirk can be left at (216) 999-5757.
DP: "It ill serves the cause of capital punishment. Pretty women who find God, should not be executed. Ugly men should… That in effect is the argument [of those who support clemency for Tucker]…"
A caller asked Prager why do we not torture murderers before we kill them? Would that not increase deterrence? Prager said that he did not use deterrence as his main argument for capital punishment but rather justice. He did think it would be just to torture torturers, but he did not support it [because of the effect that inflicting torture might have on us].
Vera: "Murderers obviously have no respect for life. They do not even value their own life." DP: Wrong. They have great respect for their own lives. They do not care about others' lives.
Marie: "My mother was murdered by a young woman. She never went to prison. She robbed my mother… First, she asked for directions… This lowlife grabbed her purse, and my mother being stubborn, hung on to it… The woman drove off, dragging my mother along…ran over her… [Killed her]… "It took a weeks time for them to locate us… It's been a long time but the pain has never gone away. "This Tucker woman should die…" DP: "In what I read, she does not really take responsibility. She says, 'it was another me.' "While society must exact a punishment, there is still a God who can forgive…." 2PM DP: "It is very difficult for people who live in freedom to know what it is like to live in a totalitarian state. "I studied totalitarianism at the Russian Institute at Colombia University. And I traveled to these countries...[China, Soviet Union and other communist countries… Prager risked his life contacting persecuted Jews in the Soviet Union in 1969… When he returned to America, he was invited to lecture on the state of Soviet Jewry… He began his public speaking career.] "When I came home from the Soviet Union, at age 21, I discovered after five lectures on Soviet totalitarianism, that Americans simply could not understand terror… 'Come on, you mean to tell me that the Iragi people wouldn't get rid of Saddam Hussein if they wanted to?' "I encounter callers [with that attitude]... "A totalitarian state is run as a mafia state. For Saddam, the average Iraqi is junk. The average American has more regard for the average Iraqi human being than Saddam does… It is his own country that he mosts mistreats. If you say something that is not right in the eyes of the secret police, you will be tortured. A favorite method is to torture children in front of their parents. "Stalin killed more people than Hitler… But when Stalin died, the crowds of mourners was so large, that many people died, crushed to death… "Saddam is producing biological and chemical weapons that are a fearsome threat to other countries. "The people who have suffered most at the hands of Saddam have been fellow Muslims: Iraqis, Iranians and Kuwaitis. "He is evolving frightening weapons. If we cannot inspect for that, something has to be done. "I don't know what level of bombardment would be necessary… For Saddam, the more Iraqis who'd die in air strikes, the better… Because he could protest… [about what outsiders are doing to him]."
2:21 PM
DP: It is interesting to see things repeat themselves… The battle against evil recurs every generation. I promise you, that when Saddam is overthrown or dies, and any sort of freedom is allowed in Iraq, you will hear stories that will stretch your credulity, about what was done to Iraqis under this regime. "If we bomb all his palaces and his Republican guard, his elite troops, it does not mean that we have destroyed these things [chemical and biological weapon productions…]… If the Republican Guard gets hit enough, perhaps they would revolt on their own. "I wouldn't be surprised if part of this research was hidden under a school… Remember the baby milk formula plant? It wasn't. But that is what the world was told on CNN. "Democracies do not like to go to war. Democracies like to make money. In free countries, people are preoccupied with sending their kids to school, take holidays… Democracies never fight each other. "We have a president who has a particular discomfort with the military. He doesn't like it. He didn't like it in college, and he doesn't today. "Third. There is no universal support for action against Saddam. "It is telling that we are alone in the world [in willingness to take on Saddam]. It is a commentary on Western Europe. We bailed them out twice this century with a lot of American blood. When in history, has the [moral] right been identified with the mass movement. People who fight for good stuff are frequently alone… "And speaking of such people… here is Larry Elder… " Elder: "I am going to have the husband of one of the persons Tucker killed… He is not amused by the Christian Coalition…" DP: "Wow… I am going to have to listen to this because I am writing on the Wall Street Journal…" Larry: "You mean that normally you wouldn't listen?I don't have feelings? I am not a human being?" DP: "If you prick me, do I not bleed?" Larry: "And at four o'clock, former FBI agent Gary Aldrich who wrote… DP: "He's being vindicated… Sounds like a great show..." Larry: "Why are you so surprised? Manya, did you hear that? I hate to raise this, but this is the hairy hidden hand of the white man… and right wing conspiracy…" DP: "Can you imagine Reagen saying there was a vast leftwing conspiracy? But when Hillary says there is a right wing conspiracy… "There is a right wing conspiracy… And you [Larry Elder] are the leader… "What hours are you on?" Larry: "You are the leader…" DP: "OK Larry, goodbye… To say it has been a pleasure, Larry, would be to considerably overstate the case…"
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